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Oh yes, we're all still here Paul Adams Data Standards Supervisor English Heritage NMRC, Kemble Drive, Swindon. SN2 2GZ t: 01793 414762 -----Original Message----- From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Sylvina Tilbury Sent: 19 January 2010 15:22 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Testing... Hello folks Sorry for the intrusion on a quiet Forum day. Just testing that my subscription settings are now working OK. Sylvina Tilbury | HER Officer | Planning & Development Service | Highland Council Glenurquhart Road, Inverness, IV3 5NX | T: 01463 702503 | F: 01463 702298 Highland HER: http://her.highland.gov.uk<http://her.highland.gov.uk/> -----Original Message----- From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Chris Webster Sent: 18 January 2010 16:56 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Event Types Thesaurus: definition of event I think we'll all agree that's bonkers! I like the definition in the EH thesaurus - I just wish you'd stick to it. Or change it to allow multiple techniques which is often fine. But I still think they must be primary data collection. In answer to Dave Evans' question - does it matter if a dba or eia is never seen again? The next developer wouldn't trust it and things might have changed. We only keep DBAs if they contain new data collection and then they are a source. Chris Webster Somerset Historic Environment Record Taunton Castle Taunton TA1 4AA 01823 255080 Visit the online HER at www.somerset.gov.uk/her -----Original Message----- From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of CARLISLE, Philip Sent: 18 January 2010 16:21 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Event Types Thesaurus: defintion of event Here's why we didn't use the ISO21127:2006 definition. This is what they class as an event. E5 Event Subclass of: E4 Period Superclass of: E7 Activity E63 Beginning of Existence E64 End of Existence Scope note: This class comprises changes of states in cultural, social or physical systems, regardless of scale, brought about by a series or group of coherent physical, cultural, technological or legal phenomena. Such changes of state will affect instances of E77 Persistent Item or its subclasses. The distinction between an E5 Event and an E4 Period is partly a question of the scale of observation. Viewed at a coarse level of detail, an E5 Event is an 'instantaneous' change of state. At a fine level, the E5 Event can be analysed into its component phenomena within a space and time frame, and as such can be seen as an E4 Period. The reverse is not necessarily the case: not all instances of E4 Period give rise to a noteworthy change of state. Examples: * the birth of Cleopatra (E67) * the destruction of Lisbon by earthquake in 1755 (E6) * World War II (E7) * the Battle of Stalingrad (E7) * the Yalta Conference (E7) * my birthday celebration 28-6-1995 (E7) * the falling of a tile from my roof last Sunday * the CIDOC Conference 2003 (E7) Properties: P11 had participant (participated in): E39 Actor P12 occurred in the presence of (was present at): E77 Persistent Item And here's Activity! E7 Activity Subclass of: E5 Event Superclass of: E8 Acquisition E9 Move E10 Transfer of Custody E11 Modification E13 Attribute Assignment E65 Creation E66 Formation Scope note: This class comprises actions intentionally carried out by instances of E39 Actor that result in changes of state in the cultural, social, or physical systems documented. This notion includes complex, composite and long-lasting actions such as the building of a settlement or a war, as well as simple, short-lived actions such as the opening of a door. Examples: * the Battle of Stalingrad * the Yalta Conference * my birthday celebration 28-6-1995 * the writing of "Faust" by Goethe (E65) * the formation of the Bauhaus 1919 (E66) Properties: P14 carried out by (performed): E39 Actor (P14.1 in the role of: E55 Type) P15 was influenced by (influenced): E1 CRM Entity P16 used specific object (was used for): E70 Thing (P16.1 mode of use: E55 Type) P17 was motivated by (motivated): E1 CRM Entity P19 was intended use of (was made for): E71 Man-Made Thing (P19.1 mode of use: E55 Type) P20 had specific purpose (was purpose of): E7 Activity P21 had general purpose (was purpose of): E55 Type P32 used general technique (was technique of): E55 Type P33 used specific technique (was used by): E29 Design or Procedure P125 used object of type (was type of object used in): E55 Type P134 continued (was continued by): E7 Activity Phil Phil Carlisle Data Standards Supervisor English Heritage National Monuments Record Centre Kemble Drive Swindon SN2 2GZ +44 (0)1793 414824 http://thesaurus.english-heritage.org.uk/ The information contained within this e-mail is confidential and may be privileged. It is intended for the addressee only. If you have received the e-mail in error, please inform the sender and delete it from your system. The contents of this e-mail must not be disclosed to anyone else or copied without the sender's consent. Any views and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of English Heritage. English Heritage will not take any responsibility for the views of the author. P Please do not print this e-mail unless you really need to -----Original Message----- From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Chris Webster Sent: 18 January 2010 16:09 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Event Types Thesaurus - now available So why didn't the EH thesaurus use that definition? And add activity. And add all the other archaeological 'activities' - I've seen some interesting ones... If you're trying to standardise, you're going a funny way about it. Chris Webster Somerset Historic Environment Record Taunton Castle Taunton TA1 4AA 01823 255080 Visit the online HER at www.somerset.gov.uk/her -----Original Message----- From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of CARLISLE, Philip Sent: 18 January 2010 15:41 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Event Types Thesaurus - now available Dear all As Noel pointed out the Environmental Statement is the result of the Environmental Impact Assessment. (see http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/planningandbuilding/environmentalimpactassessment) The EIA (or DBA) is just as valid an event as any other activity which is then typed up in a report. If we're to follow Chris's argument then to my mind the reverse is true we don't need to record the events just the sources resulting from them! As for what constitutes an event or activity I suggest we should take our lead from the international standard "Information and documentation -- A reference ontology for the interchange of cultural heritage information" ISO 21127:2006 (AKA the CIDOC CRM). I'd challenge anyone to say that any event in the thesaurus doesn't fit the definition of an event in that auspicious publication. Phil Phil Carlisle Data Standards Supervisor English Heritage National Monuments Record Centre Kemble Drive Swindon SN2 2GZ +44 (0)1793 414824 http://thesaurus.english-heritage.org.uk/ The information contained within this e-mail is confidential and may be privileged. It is intended for the addressee only. If you have received the e-mail in error, please inform the sender and delete it from your system. The contents of this e-mail must not be disclosed to anyone else or copied without the sender's consent. Any views and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of English Heritage. English Heritage will not take any responsibility for the views of the author. P Please do not print this e-mail unless you really need to -----Original Message----- From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Chris Webster Sent: 18 January 2010 14:56 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Event Types Thesaurus - now available If you are going down this route that the Environmental Statement (or DBA) is an event, then so is any other book synthesising knowledge about the past (including Geoffrey of Monmouth). Thus we don't need sources, they are all events! Chris Webster Somerset Historic Environment Record Taunton Castle Taunton TA1 4AA 01823 255080 Visit the online HER at www.somerset.gov.uk/her -----Original Message----- From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of David Evans Sent: 18 January 2010 14:45 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Event Types Thesaurus - now available However you cover it up they are still events recognised or not. The medieval manuscript where Merlin moves the stones from Wales presumably! David Evans Historic Environment Record Officer Planning and Environment South Gloucestershire Council Civic Centre High Street Kingswood BS15 9TR Phone: 01454 863649 fax: 01454 865173 ________________________________ From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Chris Webster Sent: 18 January 2010 14:35 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Event Types Thesaurus - now available I thought we'd abandoned 'recognition events' years ago. When was Stonehenge first 'recognised'? The EIA is a source for the monument. Easy. Chris Webster Somerset Historic Environment Record Taunton Castle Taunton TA1 4AA 01823 255080 Visit the online HER at www.somerset.gov.uk/her -----Original Message----- From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of David Evans Sent: 18 January 2010 14:15 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Event Types Thesaurus - now available Therefore if an archaeological site is recorded only in an EIA and nowhere else I can't use the EIA as the recognition event, sorry be the logic escapes me! David Evans Historic Environment Record Officer Planning and Environment South Gloucestershire Council Civic Centre High Street Kingswood BS15 9TR Phone: 01454 863649 fax: 01454 865173 ________________________________ From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Stewart Bryant Sent: 18 January 2010 13:55 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Event Types Thesaurus - now available Crispin EIA is a statutory process. It sometimes results in events but it is not an event in itself. In the same way as an evaluation undertaken in response to a planning application is an event but the planning application isn't. i did make this point as part of the consultation. Stewart Dr Stewart Bryant Head of Historic Environment Environment Dept. Hertfordshire County Council County Hall Hertford SG13 8DN 01992 555244 Crispin Flower <[log in to unmask]> Sent by: Issues related to Historic Environment Records <[log in to unmask]> 18/01/2010 13:43 Please respond to Issues related to Historic Environment Records <[log in to unmask]> To [log in to unmask] cc Subject Re: Event Types Thesaurus - now available Chris I'm sure Paul will speak up, but as I understand it the new thesaurus is supposed to be useful for the MIDAS Heritage "Investigate Activity" and "Research & Analysis" information groups (which come under the "Activities" theme). If this is correct, then types like AP interpretation , EIA become useful and valid. And this ties in with the recording practice of most HERs. On another note... HBSMR users note that although the event type terms may be included in the next thesaurus version, there's still a lot more work to actually enable thesaurus-based recording in the Activities/Events module, and to work out a smooth migration mechanism for existing data. Yours Crispin From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Chris Webster Sent: 18 January 2010 13:15 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Event Types Thesaurus - now available As Paul will be aware, I'm more concerned about what has got in that shouldn't be there than the other way around. I brought this up at the peer review stage but there was no discussion, so I don't know what the thinking is. However, I still cannot see how the inclusion of things such as Environmental Impact Assessment "An information gathering exercise to facilitate an understanding of the potential environmental impact of a development proposal; includes the collation of specialist reports from a variety of disciplines." can be reconciled with the definition of an event: "A single episode of primary data collection over a discrete area of land. This single recording event can only consist of one investigative technique and is therefore a unique entity in time and space". (My emphasis). Things like EIAs and DBAs were clearly meant to be excluded from this definition. They have crept in (via the ALGAO list I think) because they are otherwise difficult to record in a HER but that's not a reason to compromise the thesaurus in this way. Similar considerations apply to APs and this is not a clear cut area. I'd suggest that a flight taken for archaeological purposes is the event - the photos are merely a recording technique (as they would be if taken at ground level). Searching for archaeological things on APs taken for other purposes is no different from looking at old ground level photos, or paintings, for information about a non-extant building. Rant over. Discuss. Chris Webster Somerset Historic Environment Record Taunton Castle Taunton TA1 4AA 01823 255080 Visit the online HER at www.somerset.gov.uk/her -----Original Message----- From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Cattermole, Alice Sent: 18 January 2010 12:09 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Event Types Thesaurus - now available Dear Paul, Thanks for this - it looks really useful. One thing that seems to be missing from the list (and which we use quite a lot in Norfolk as we have an NMP project underway) is aerial photo interpretation (as opposed to the actual process of aerial reconnaissance and photography). I would have expected to find it listed under Heritage Assessment - sorry if I have missed this and it's somewhere else in the thesaurus. Many thanks, Alice --- Alice Cattermole Historic Environment Record Officer Norfolk Landscape Archaeology Union House Gressenhall East Dereham NR20 4DR Tel. 01362 869281 ________________________________ From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ADAMS, Paul Sent: 18 January 2010 11:52 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Event Types Thesaurus - now available Importance: High Dear colleagues, You may be interested to know that English Heritage's Data Standards Unit recently completed a thesaurus of archaeological and architectural fieldwork types and techniques as a development of the ALGAO event type wordlist. The thesaurus will allow users to identify and apply standardized indexing to a wide range of investigative activities that are undertaken by the heritage community, as well as assisting in the retrieval and exchange of data, please see attached leaflet. We are pleased to announce that the first edition of the Event Types Thesaurus is now available in .csv format for building into databases, if you would like a copy in this format please feel free to contact me off list; HBSMR users will receive the thesaurus as part of our next update. Our web pages have now been updated at http://thesaurus.english-heritage.org.uk<http://thesaurus.english-heritage.org.uk/> where users can browse the thesaurus online and download pdf versions of the introduction and appendices. Once again I would like to thank all those who kindly gave their time to comment on and participate in the review of the thesaurus during its construction. Kind regards Paul Paul Adams AIfA Data Standards Supervisor English Heritage NMRC, Kemble Drive, Swindon. SN2 2GZ t: 01793 414762 ________________________________ Concerned about how climate change may affect older properties? What about saving energy? 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[log in to unmask] ********************************************************************** This communication is intended solely for the person (s) or organisation to whom it is addressed. It may contain privileged and confidential information and if you are not the intended recipient (s), you must not copy, distribute or take any action in reliance on it. If you have received this e-mail in error please notify the sender and copy the message to [log in to unmask] Individuals are advised that by replying to, or sending an e-mail message to Somerset County Council, you accept that you have no explicit or implicit expectation of privacy. In line with the Surveillance and Monitoring Policy, any e-mail messages (and attachments) transmitted over the Council's network may be subject to scrutiny. ________________________________ Concerned about how climate change may affect older properties? What about saving energy? Visit our new website www.climatechangeandyourhome.org.uk<http://www.climatechangeandyourhome.org.uk/> today. This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal views which are not the views of English Heritage unless specifically stated. If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system and notify the sender immediately. Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in reliance on it. Any information sent to English Heritage may become publicly available. This communication is intended solely for the person (s) or organisation to whom it is addressed. It may contain privileged and confidential information and if you are not the intended recipient (s), you must not copy, distribute or take any action in reliance on it. If you have received this e-mail in error please notify the sender and copy the message to [log in to unmask] Individuals are advised that by replying to, or sending an e-mail message to Somerset County Council, you accept that you have no explicit or implicit expectation of privacy. In line with the Surveillance and Monitoring Policy, any e-mail messages (and attachments) transmitted over the Council's network may be subject to scrutiny. ________________________________ Concerned about how climate change may affect older properties? What about saving energy? Visit our new website www.climatechangeandyourhome.org.uk<http://www.climatechangeandyourhome.org.uk/> today. This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal views which are not the views of English Heritage unless specifically stated. If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system and notify the sender immediately. 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If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system and notify the sender immediately. Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in reliance on it. Any information sent to English Heritage may become publicly available.