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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture From: Dr Jim Bugslag <[log in to unmask]> > The, granted, very interesting tradition of Hiberno-Saxon stone crosses apart, take them apart if you wish, Jim (you closet Philistine), but their relatively high quality and sophistication strongly suggest that "they did not suck themselves out of their own fingers" (as Panofsky's teacher, Wilhelm Voge once said, in another --but not entirely unrelated-- context). au contraire, ma frere, i'd say that the burden of proof lies with those who would suggest that the monumental, sculpted stone crosses were one-off flukes, appearing outside of any related material context or tradition --and a rather broad one at that, most likely made up of exemplars in multiple other media, the relative fragility of which has led to those exemplars disappearing without a trace (save, of course, for the --admittedly indirect-- evidence of the cross sculptures). and that particular negative will be a tough nut to prove, even for a Canaduhian Philistine. >even documentary references to "free-standing" religious statuary only begin to appear in Carolingian documents, hardly "proof" that suchlike statuary did not exist. btw, how many pre-Carolingian "documentary references" do we have to, say, frescoes? or "ivory" carving? or glass windows? or buildings _qua_ buildings? or, for that matter, to decorated manuscripts? >and as for actual survivals, "actual survivals" surely represent a tiny, minuscule percentage of what once existed. that's my only point. >the late 10th-century Gero Crucifix is quite an early example. an early *surviving* example, you mean to say. >The other prominent early category besides Crucifixes are statues of the Virgin and Child, which are also rare before the 11th century. "surviving exemplars of which are also rare," you mean to say. >And figural reliquaries, too, fit this same chronological pattern. (tediously) ditto. >Certainly, it was only in the 13th century that any substantial number of statues of the saints begin to appear within churches. yes, if we could merely judge by the SURVIVING exemplars. though, in the case of saints' statues other factors --liturgical, hagiographical, etc.-- might well explain the possible absence of exemplars in the [surviving] pre-13th c. record. best (from the Philistine-cleansed Hills of Southern Indianer), c > Christopher Crockett wrote: > > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture > > > > i should think the point of the crosses adorned with sculpted figures is that, > > simply, they exist --and therefore prove the existence of figural sculpture > > (at least relief sculpture) at that date (whatever the date of the crosses > > is). > > > > that being the case, the bald statement that "As for images, there wouldn't > > have been statues in churches that early" would seem to be a bit of a stretch, > > even if amended to read "there wouldn't have been *free-standing* statues in > > churches that early." > > > > certainly none have survived --but then very, very little has survived from > > that dark epoch, save for a few buildings, some manuscripts, some metalwork, > > some "ivory" carvings, a paltry few frescoes(?), and even more paltry few > > glass window fragments... the quality of all of which seems to be generally > > quite high, suggesting a *much* larger mass of artifacts, 99.997% of which (by > > my careful count) have simply been lost without a trace. > > > > stone sculpture would have had the best chance for surviving, of course, but, > > given the evident quality of the sculptures on the crosses we should assume > > sculpture once existed in other, much more fragile media --stucco, "ivory," > > wax, and, certainly most ubiquitously, wood. > > > > statues which were "free-standing" can't really be ruled out, given the state > > of our knowledge (or, more precisely, of our ignorance). > > > > c > > > > ------ Original Message ------ > > Received: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 07:12:59 PM EST > > From: Dr Jim Bugslag <[log in to unmask]> > > To: [log in to unmask] > > Subject: Re: [M-R] Feasts and paintings > > > > > >> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture > >> > >> Good point, George, > >> The tenor of Meg's original question, though, suggested free-standing > >> > > statues within churches, which were a much later development. If anything, > > the standing crosses were probably replacements for churches, rather than > > decorations of them. > > > >> Cheers, > >> Jim > >> > >>> And of course the great standing crosses, such as Ruthwell and Bewcastle > >>> > > in England, and in Ireland, often feature sculpted figures and texts. > > > >>> GHB > >>> > >>> On Nov 30, 2009, at 2:05 PM, Dr Jim Bugslag wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and > >>>> > > culture > > > >>>> Meg, > >>>> According to Bede, Benedict Biscop brought back more from Rome than > >>>> > > chants: he apparently brought the cantor of St Peter's. I can't comment on the > > liturgical aspects of your question, although certainly Marian feasts were > > becoming established in Rome during the 7th century. As for images, there > > wouldn't have been statues in churches that early. Bede, however, claims that > > many panels were > > brought from Rome, and describes in some detail the "programme" of images in > > the church at Jarrow. I know this has been written about recently (Richard > > Gameson?), but don't have any references at hand. > > > >>>> Cheers, > >>>> Jim > >>>> > >>>> Cormack, Margaret Jean wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and > >>>>> culture > >>>>> > >>>>> Greetings all, > >>>>> > >>>>> The discussion of the Purification has reminded me of something I > >>>>> have wondered about for some time, and I’ll ask it now. We know that > >>>>> Benedict Biscop brought back to England the “chant for the > >>>>> liturgical year as it was sung in Rome” around 680. My question is > >>>>> not about the singing, but about what the liturgical year would have > >>>>> looked like at that time. What were the main feasts that would have > >>>>> been celebrated in Rome? In England, if different? What about art? > >>>>> Do we have any idea of the decoration of churches (in particular, > >>>>> statues or murals of saints or biblical episodes) at this time? > >>>>> > >>>>> Meg > >>>>> > >>>>> *From:* medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval > >>>>> religious culture [mailto:[log in to unmask]] *On > >>>>> Behalf Of *Revd Gordon Plumb > >>>>> *Sent:* Monday, November 30, 2009 11:51 AM > >>>>> *To:* [log in to unmask] > >>>>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > >>>>> *Subject:* Re: [M-R] Changing description of 2 February > >>>>> > >>>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and > >>>>> culture > >>>>> > >>>>> Rosemary > >>>>> > >>>>> I forgot to mention that in the late medieval period scenes of the > >>>>> Purification were mostly accompanied by a procession of folk bearing > >>>>> candles. Curiously enough I have recently been scanning an image of > >>>>> this in the 12thC glass in the central west façade window at > >>>>> Chartres, devoted to the Childhood and Life of Christ. > >>>>> > >>>>> Gordon > >>>>> > >>>>> ********************************************************************** > >>>>> To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME > >>>>> to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address > >>>>> it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the > >>>>> message: leave medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In > >>>>> order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: > >>>>> [log in to unmask] For further information, > >>>>> visit our web site: > >>>>> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html > >>>>> > >>>>> ********************************************************************** > >>>>> To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME > >>>>> to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address > >>>>> it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the > >>>>> message: leave medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In > >>>>> order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: > >>>>> [log in to unmask] For further information, > >>>>> visit our web site: > >>>>> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html > >>>>> > >>>> ********************************************************************** > >>>> To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME > >>>> to: [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > >>>> To send a message to the list, address it to: > >>>> [log in to unmask] > >>>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > >>>> To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion > >>>> to: [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > >>>> In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: > >>>> [log in to unmask] > >>>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > >>>> For further information, visit our web site: > >>>> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html > >>>> > >>> ********************************************************************** > >>> To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME > >>> to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it > >>> to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the > >>> message: leave medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order > >>> to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: > >>> [log in to unmask] For further information, > >>> visit our web site: > >>> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html > >>> > >> ********************************************************************** > >> To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME > >> to: [log in to unmask] > >> To send a message to the list, address it to: > >> [log in to unmask] > >> To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion > >> to: [log in to unmask] > >> In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: > >> [log in to unmask] > >> For further information, visit our web site: > >> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html > >> > >> > > ********************************************************************** > > To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME > > to: [log in to unmask] > > To send a message to the list, address it to: > > [log in to unmask] > > To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion > > to: [log in to unmask] > > In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: > > [log in to unmask] > > For further information, visit our web site: > > http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html > > > > > > > > ********************************************************************** > To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME > to: [log in to unmask] > To send a message to the list, address it to: > [log in to unmask] > To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion > to: [log in to unmask] > In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: > [log in to unmask] > For further information, visit our web site: > http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html > ********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html