medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Thanks to you Richard for these reflections
-
what you say situates this matter in just
the
context and environment I would situate it
in and brings out its meaning as I myself
experience it, formulating it very well
and
concisely. I do very much like your
formulation
of Joachim's vision & its significance
today for
world affairs - I feel you are spot on. And
thanks to you Jim for your reflections, I liked
your thought about Joachim vs Nostradamus
which hadn't occurred to me and which I think
both pertinent and interesting. It was your
comments which have drawn out Richard's.
Many thanks gentlemen for these things,
Mata
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 6:02
AM
Subject: Re: [M-R] Joachim di Fiore &
Barack Obama ?
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
culture
joachim represents the renewal of millennial thinking (banned
by
augustine but widely practised unofficially) among christian
elites.
his version of the millennium lends itself to a
strong
"transformative" apocalyptic scenario in which the transition
from one
"age" into the next (from the "last" to the "millennial")
occurs
through a largely non-violent process of human
self-transcendence. as
such it can (and did) make it under the
"political" radar for
squelching millennialism.
the resulting
vision, which is capacious, tolerant, even, as rt lerner
has argued,
unusually philo-semitic, has fed much of the
transformative (and
other) subsequent millennial traditions, including
various anabaptist
and quaker-style apostolic apocalyptic fervor.
it is perhaps the single
most important contributor to what is known
in some circles as
post-millennialism (jesus comes after we start the
millennium by our
faith). this includes the wide range of messianic
scientific movements
(eg bacon, artificial intelligence, artificial
life) and peace
movements (i think that goes back to the peace of god).
the impact of
this kind of thinking on modern progessive thought is
substantial if
largely implicit and understudied (eg on messianic
socialism/communism).
much of the modern human rights community
develops from and
rearticulates this western transformative millennial
stream.
r
On Dec 1, 2009, at 7:12 PM, Dr Jim Bugslag
wrote:
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion
and
> culture
>
> Hello Mata,
> I still have a
vintage copy of an American tabloid called The Globe
> from 2004
which claims as a headline that the Antichrist will run
> for
president. And wouldn't you know it: George W. Bush did run.
> What might be more interesting to ascertain is the last U.S.
> presidential election that *didn't* engender apocalyptic hype.
It
> is, perhaps, befitting of Obama that he was related to
the
> relatively sophisticated Joachim of Fiore, rather than, say,
the
> definitely overdone Nostradamus. Apparently, the origin
of
> newspapers, back in the 17th century -- and re. the US of A,
at the
> instigation of Quakers -- was directly related to
ferreting out
> signs of the End Times and apocalyptic
prognostications. The Middle
> Ages, it would seem, is still,
in some respects, alive and well!
> Cheers,
> Jim
>
>
Mata Kimasitayo wrote:
>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of
medieval religion and
>> culture
>> After reading in
The Mediaeval Review the following
>> Selge, Kurt-Victor, ed. Joachim
von Fiore, <i>Psalterium decem
>> cordarum</i>. MGH Quellen
zur Geistesgeschichte des Mittelalters, bd.
>> 20. Hannover:
Hahnsche Buchhandlung, 2009. Pp. ccxcvii, 467. Euros
>> 75. ISBN:
9783775210201.
>> which I expect others got in their mailboxes recently
too, I was
>> discussing
>> Joachim with a friend which
led me to suggest that it wouldn't
>> surprise me
>> if
there were a reasonably good Wiki entry sub Joachim (on that see
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joachim_of_Fiore)
- I checked but I
>> did find
>> something which
surprised me, viz.:
>> 2008 US presidential campaign hoax
>>
Recently, a hoax has been circulating that Barack Obama <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama
>> > referred to Gioacchino da Fiore, or Joachim of Fiore, three
times
>> in his campaign speeches during the 2008 presidential
election <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_presidential_election
>> >^[4] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joachim_of_Fiore#cite_note-3>
.
>> He is said to have spoken of him as a /master of
contemporary
>> civilization/ who had sought to create a better
world. Of course,
>> no citation in any actual speech of Obama's
quoting or mentioning
>> Joachim has been produced. However,
there has been renewed popular
>> interest in da Fiore. In 2009
Father Raniero Cantalamessa <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raniero_Cantalamessa
>> >, preacher to the Pontifical Household <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontifical_Household
>> >, gave a lecture to Pope Benedict XVI <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Benedict_XVI
>> > and the papal household, restating the Roman Catholic
Church's
>> view that Gioacchino da Fiore was a heretic. ^[5]
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joachim_of_Fiore#cite_note-4
>> > ^[6] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joachim_of_Fiore#cite_note-5>
>>
[1- 3 below correspond to 4 -6 above]
>>
>> 1. *^
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joachim_of_Fiore#cite_ref-3>*
>>
"Italy: Obama invited to visit land of monk who inspired
him
>> <http://www.adnkronos.com/AKI/English/CultureAndMedia/?id=1.0.2442653602
>> >"
>> (in English). /AKI/
(Adnkronos International - Italy). 28
August
>>
2008.
>> http://www.adnkronos.com/AKI/English/CultureAndMedia/?id=1.0.2442653602
>> .
>> Retrieved
2009-03-30. 2. *^ <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joachim_of_Fiore#cite_ref-4
>> >*
>> Owen, Richard
(March 27, 2009). "Medieval monk hailed by
Barack
>> Obama was a heretic, says
Vatican
>> <http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article5987457.ece
>> >".
>> The
Times.
>> http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article5987457.ece
>> .
>> Retrieved
2009-03-27. 3. *^ <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joachim_of_Fiore#cite_ref-5
>> >*
>> "Vatican raps Obama
medieval mystic
>> <http://www.ansa.it/site/notizie/awnplus/english/news/2009-03-27_127338901.html
>> >"
>> (in English).
ANSA
>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
>>
Agenzia_Nazionale_Stampa_Associata>,
>>
Italy. 2009-03-27.
>> http://www.ansa.it/site/notizie/awnplus/english/news/2009-03-27_127338901.html
>> .
>> Retrieved
2009-03-27.
>> Does anyone know know anything about this business, have
any
>> insight into what it is all about ? It is all news to me
& I myself
>> could not be more astonished to stumble over
this !
>> Mata
**********************************************************************
To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME
to: [log in to unmask]
To send a message to the list, address it to:
[log in to unmask]
To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion
to: [log in to unmask]
In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to:
[log in to unmask]
For further information, visit our web site:
http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html