Thanks for your considered reply David!
Yes I mean the rest of Europe and agree one hundred percent with
what you say about ‘community’ (ditto the ‘lesbian, gay and bisexual
community’, etc etc).
I think we could endlessly discuss the semantics of the different
descriptions – for instance, I don’t understand why you seem to be
suggesting that asylum seekers and undocumented migrants do not have an ethnic
group, and why I think ‘migrants’ is wrong is that is it an accurate
description of a 60 year-old who left, say, Kenya as a baby and has lived in England
ever since? Also, this person may have refugee status, yet is
usually lumped together with asylum seekers in the phrase ‘refugees and
asylum seekers’.
As a researcher, I am increasingly thinking that ethnicity
is not an especially good way to categorise people, but when funders want
research doing on Black and minority ethnic populations (or any other category
of people), then, well, I need to eat! I think we should go back to
class, but that’s a whole other discussion!!!!!!
And here’s another thing to discuss – is the phrase ‘tar
them all with the same brush’ racist?
Jane
From: Health of minority ethnic communities in
the UK [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Ingleby,
J.D. (David)
Sent: 28 October 2009 19:16
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Black/black
Dear Jane,
The term "Black and minority
ethnic" does indeed cause raised eyebrows in what you refer
to as Europe (by which I suppose you mean continental Europe;
last time I looked, the UK was geographically and politically part of Europe!)
I understand the historical reasons why the term "BME" was
invented, but all the same I hope it will be phased out one day. Apart
from suggesting a contrast between Black and other minority ethnic
groups, it is a quite inadequate term to use for asylum seekers, who are not an
ethnic group (unless Home-Office-Land is a country of origin) and often have no
chance to belong to an ethnic group in the UK. The same applies to undocumented
migrants, who constitute approximately 10% of all migrants. In fact,
I think the popularity of the term "BME" has a lot to do
with the neglect of the rights of asylum seekers and undocumented migrants
in the UK - though which is cause and which is effect, I'm not sure.
It's true that we
"Europeans" on the other side of the Channel do tend to talk a lot
about "migrants", but that reflects a deliberate choice for a
different theoretical perspective. I don't understand how you can call it "just
plain wrong". Referring to "second generation
migrants" is a contradiction in terms, I admit; but ignoring the
difference between members of an ethnic group who were born overseas and those
who were born in the host country - which is what you do if you only look at
"ethnicity" - is not very helpful either. Can't we just agree to
study "migrants and ethnic minorities"?
As for what constitutes an "minority
ethnic group", I'd like to challenge the apparent assumption of many UK
researchers that whenever you have a group of people coming from a certain
country, you have an "ethnic community". Very
often, "community" is just a feel-good term that
doesn't correspond to anything real. The only way to find out whether
people coming from a particular country form a community - i.e. identify with
that country, maintain contact with each other, and so on - is to get out there
and ask them. My hunch is that many of them don't. Especially when the
country in question is a big one, regions, cities, religions or tribes may be
far more important.
For example: in the Netherlands, Moroccans
are treated as an ethnic group (and how!) However, if you ask
them, you learn that many never thought of themselves as
"Moroccans" when they arrived. In particular, Berber-
and Arabic-speaking Moroccans felt they had little in common with each
other. However, when the Dutch media and intellectuals started to tar them
all with the same brush, they suddenly did - and so an ethnic group was
born.....
Glad to see these issues aired at last!
Best wishes,
David
Utrecht,
The Netherlands,
Europe,
The World,
The Solar System,
etc.
Van: Jane
Fountain [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Verzonden: wo 28-10-2009 09:05
Aan: Ingleby, J.D. (David); [log in to unmask]
Onderwerp: Black/black
I agree with Mark
(below) on this one. At ISCRI, we use the following to explain:
"We are
very conscious that various terms are used to refer to the many diverse
communities in the UK. We use
‘Black and minority ethnic communities/populations.’ This
reflects that our concern is not only with those for whom 'Black' is a
political term, denoting those who identify around a basis of skin colour
distinction or who may face discrimination because of this or their
culture: 'Black and minority ethnic' also acknowledges the
diversity that exists within these communities, and includes a wider range of
those who may not consider their identity to be ‘Black,’ but who
nevertheless constitute a distinct ethnic group, such as White Irish
people."
This goes down
like a ton of bricks in Europe, though, where the 'and' in 'Black and minority
ethnic' is taken to mean that 'Black' people are not 'minority ethnic'
people.
Throughout Europe,
the term most often used is 'migrants' which I think is totally inadequate
and just plain wrong, but I fear I am fighting a losing battle!
I too have had
problems with journals who decapitalise my 'Black' even when I add the
paragraph above explaining it.
My main concern as
a researcher, however, whatever people choose to call themselves, with a
capital or not, is that data are collected
and presented
at least according to the 2001 census (or is it Census?) categories.
Many publications (including government ones) present data on ethnicity
collapsed into the categories of 'Black, White, Asian, Mixed, Chinese and
other', which is useless for most purposes.
Jane
From: Health of minority ethnic communities in
the UK [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of M
& M Johnson
Sent: 26 October 2009 17:10
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Black - capital B or not
Guardian
style book reduces nearly all Capitals except proper names to lower case
In
my experience (i.e. 'according to Johnson')
Black
vs black is like Deaf versus deaf: Politically defined as an identity or used
as an adjective (roughly speaking) i.e., the Deaf community use D to indicate
an identity and political message, others use as an adjective indicating loss
of auditory ability.
similarly
with Black used as an inclusive term and/or shorthand for BME or BAME (and
there's some room there for manoeuvre on what the A stands for - asylum
seekers, asian and And.)
you
choose....
Mark
R D Johnson
Moderator,
Minority-Ethnic-Health Discussion List
www.jiscmail.ac.uk/minority-ethnic-health
Others
- please comment - this could be an interesting discussion!