medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Cecelia,medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and cultureDear Cecilia,It's a little hard to get answers to these question when we don't have the title or venue of Vauchez's article. But if you take the time to look at the pertinent pages in Augustine Thompson's book via the link I provided in my previous post, you will find answers to some of your questions, albeit not in enough quantity or detail to permit useful generalizations.Best again,John DillonOn Monday, October 19, 2009 7:28 pm, Cecilia Gaposchkin wrote:medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and cultureOK, Good. But what was the value of the candle? Did the church use thesecandles? Were they used to light the church? Was the wax sold forincome? Itclearly had alot of symbolic capital. What I'm not getting is the ultimatevalue of the votive object. Was it practical? Economic? purely symbolic?Were these candle used? lighted?ceciliaOn Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 8:15 PM, Andrew Larsen <[log in to unmask]> wrote:medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and cultureAndre Vauchez has an interesting article about how Italian cities managedsaints cults partly through donations of candles. In at least one city,they sent an official around to check if the church in question waskeepingthe city's (massive) candle on its altar all year. Those thatdidn't werepenalized. The gift of the candle was a sign of official approvalby thecity.Andrew E. LarsenOn Oct 19, 2009, at 6:54 PM, Dr Jim Bugslag wrote:medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and cultureThis is a large subject, and I have never seen any really goodstudy ofit, but you are certainly right about the votive use of candles.It wascommon for someone to be "measured for a candle" in relation to anexpectedmiracle cure at the shrine of a saint, the candle in question beingeitherthe length of the person or their weight. There were alsotrindles, whichwere long tapers, usually wound into a skein. The city of Chartresannuallyoffered one to the cathedral that was as long as the circumferenceof thecity walls. And there were all sorts of miraculous candles, aswell. Ibelieve that S. Maria Maggiore in Rome claimed one of four candlesthat werebelieved to have descended from heaven around the Virgin Mary atthe birthof Christ, and in the early 11th century, the Virgin showed up inperson atArras, leaving the Holy Candle there, with instructions on how touse itswax to cure the mal des ardents. It was usually believed that suchcandlescould burn without being consumed, and other miraculous candleswere oftencreated using bits of their wax.Cheers,JimCecilia Gaposchkin wrote:medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion andcultureHello all,I'm just now catching up on this thread, and it catches my attentionbecause I have just been reading some miracle and pilgrimagestories, andeveryone is always pledging candles, and giving candles, andbuying candles- candles of quite enormous proportions: candles the length of thetomb,candles the length of a sick son, candles the length and shape ofa lameleg, and so forth - to the shrine.When, as a graduate student, I used to lecture at the Cloisters, Ihadsome pithy and almost certainly inaccurate line about the desirefor lightin churches, the "donations" of candles and [ahem, this is whereit becomesmethodologically dubious], and appearance of stained glass with Gothicarchitecture and the "desire" for "light".I'm not really asking for an explanation of that crazy argument. Butrather, if we're talking about medieval lighting, can anyone talkabit aboutthe function/economics/aesthetics/and/osprituality of the "candle"in themedieval churches. It seems alot of people were spending alot ofmoney -even money they didn't have much of - on candles.ceciliaOn Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 12:18 PM, John McCulloh <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion andcultureI had just looked up the reference to suggest the same article.It is fascinating reading. Ekirch presents evidence that, beforethe advent of cheap electrical lighting, people went to bed atdusk woke up around midnight to relieve themselves, eat andsocialize, and then nodded off for their "second sleep."For medievalists it suggests that monks getting up in the middleof the night were not really practicing asceticism. They werefollowing a typical sleep pattern. The monastic element in theirvigils was their prayer.JohnJohn M. McCullohProfessor Officetel: 785-532-0373Department of History Deptaltel: 785-532-6730Eisenhower Hall FAX:785-532-7004Kansas State UniversityManhattan, KS 66506-1002----- Original Message -----<<Sent: Monday, October 19, 2009 8:21:35 AM GMT -06:00 US/CanadaCentralSubject: Re: [M-R] Medieval lightingmedieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion andcultureOn preindustrial sleeping patterns, some might find this articleinteresting: A. Roger Ekirch, "Sleep We Have Lost: Pre-industrialSlumber inthe British Isles," The American Historical Review 106:2(April, 2001)ShannonDr. Shannon McSheffreyProfessor and Chair, Department of HistoryConcordia University1455 de Maisonneuve Blvd. W.Montreal, Quebec CANADA H3G 1M8**********************************************************************To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOURNAMETo send a message to the list, address it to:<To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religionIn order to report problems or to contact the list's owners,write to:<For further information, visit our web site:**********************************************************************To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOURNAMETo send a message to the list, address it to:<To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religionIn order to report problems or to contact the list's owners,write to:<For further information, visit our web site:**********************************************************************Tojoin the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAMEto:to:[log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message:leave medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to reportproblems or to contact the list's owners, write to: medieval-religion-[log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site:**********************************************************************To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAMETo send a message to the list, address it to:To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religionIn order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, writeto:For further information, visit our web site:**********************************************************************To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAMETo send a message to the list, address it to:To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religionIn order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to:For further information, visit our web site:**********************************************************************To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAMETo send a message to the list, address it to:To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religionIn order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to:For further information, visit our web site:**********************************************************************To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAMETo send a message to the list, address it to:To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religionIn order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to:For further information, visit our web site: