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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture I saw in a manuscript for Italian uns now at Johns Hopkins prayers to be said before a statue while holding a candle. Tom Izbicki Dr Jim Bugslag wrote: > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture > > I seem to recall some similar material in Richard Marks, Image and > Devotion in Late Medieval England, specifically regarding candles to > be burned before images in, mostly parish, churches. I suspect that > this may have been a "problem" similar to monasteries bunching up > votive masses rather than performing them all individually - > convenience over scrupulousness. > Jim > > John Dillon wrote: >> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and >> culture >> >> Interesting. Thompson's examples (as one may have read by now: >> twelve pages is not a lot) are from Lombardy, Emilia-Romagna, >> Tuscany, and Umbria. Without -- to judge from Andrew's summary -- >> duplicating any of Vauchez's instances (and lacking V.'s interest in >> uncanonized saints), they yield the same general picture. Are there >> no similar contributions based on French material? >> >> Best again, >> John Dillon >> On Monday, October 19, 2009, at 9:09 pm, Andrew Larsen wrote: >> >> >>> Cecelia, >>> The article in question is "Patronage of Saints and Civic >>> Religion in the Italy of the Communes" in The Laity in the Middle >>> Ages (Notre Dame, 1993) (I think it might be a reprinted article, >>> but I'm not sure). >>> At Orvieto, in 1350, the city sent a 50 lb candle to the >>> cathedral for the Virgin and a second smaller one (weight >>> unspecified in the article) to the cathedral for a local saint. The >>> Dominican house received 2 20 lb candles, one for Dominic and one >>> for a local saint. The Franciscans received a similar pair of >>> candles, and the Augustinians 1 candle. Statutes required that the >>> candles remain in place for 1 full year, when they would be replaced. >>> In 1314, Orvieto issued a statute specifying that its candles >>> "should serve exclusively to illuminate the body of Christ and >>> should remain lit until the end of the Elevation." If a candle was >>> not kept for a whole year, it was not to be replaced. A notary was >>> required to visit the church every three months to ensure the candle >>> was in the proper location. >>> In 1315, Poggibonsi declared a candle-lit procession for a local >>> saint. Beginning in 1321, the town annually calculated the number >>> of candles to be used, which varied between 200 and 500. They were >>> donated to the local Franciscan house. An equal number of merchants >>> were required to donate candles and participate in the procession. >>> The number of candles dropped from 500 in 1348 to 350 in 1350. >>> Also in Poggibonsi, on the feast of a local saint, the guilds >>> conducted a torch-lit procession to the saint's church and then >>> donated the torches, on penalty of a fine. The next day, the town >>> presented wax to the same church. >>> In 1451, Amandola decreed an annual donation of a 50-solidi >>> candle. After 1471, the value of the candle went up to 10 pounds. >>> In 1391, Spoleto decreed a donation of 30 lbs of wax every year >>> to the Dominican church, although in 1397 this was reduced to >>> several (4, I think)candles of 3 lbs each. Two more candles of >>> equal weight were given to another church. The remaining 12 lbs of >>> wax was given to clergy who participated. >>> Most of the saints involved were uncanonized saints, so the >>> towns in question were giving civic approval to these saints and >>> thereby skirting church control of canonization. >>> So to answer your questions, it seems that the candles were >>> expected to be used, although the requirement to check up suggests >>> that there was a worry they wouldn't be used. At Orvieto, the town >>> tried to ensure exactly when the candles were used during the >>> service, and exactly where they would be shedding their light. The >>> economic value of the candles was clearly an issue in some cases, >>> since at Amandola they increased the cost, while at Spoleto, because >>> of quarrels between churches, they decided to rebalance how the >>> candles/wax was being given away. The fact that Poggibonsi fined >>> those who failed to donate their candles suggests that some people >>> resisted the required donation. So although the value of the >>> candles was symbolic and practical (Orvieto did want them used for >>> lighting) to the town government, they were aware of the economic >>> aspects of the issue and tried to control them. >>> Hope this helps. >>> >>> Andrew E. Larsen >>> >>> On Oct 19, 2009, at 7:49 PM, John Dillon wrote: >>> >>> >>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and >>>> culture >>>> >>>> Dear Cecilia, >>>> >>>> It's a little hard to get answers to these question when we don't >>>> >>> have the title or venue of Vauchez's article. But if you take the >>> time to look at the pertinent pages in Augustine Thompson's book via >>> the link I provided in my previous post, you will find answers to >>> some of your questions, albeit not in enough quantity or detail to >>> permit useful generalizations. >>> >>>> Best again, >>>> John Dillon >>>> >>>> >>>> On Monday, October 19, 2009 7:28 pm, Cecilia Gaposchkin wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and >>>>> culture >>>>> >>>>> OK, Good. But what was the value of the candle? Did the church use >>>>> these >>>>> candles? Were they used to light the church? Was the wax sold for >>>>> income? It >>>>> clearly had alot of symbolic capital. What I'm not getting is the >>>>> ultimate >>>>> value of the votive object. Was it practical? Economic? purely >>>>> symbolic? >>>>> Were these candle used? lighted? >>>>> >>>>> cecilia >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 8:15 PM, Andrew Larsen <[log in to unmask]> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and >>>>>> culture >>>>>> >>>>>> Andre Vauchez has an interesting article about how Italian cities >>>>>> managed >>>>>> saints cults partly through donations of candles. In at least >>>>>> one >>> city, >>> >>>>>> they sent an official around to check if the church in question was >>>>>> >>>>> keeping >>>>> >>>>>> the city's (massive) candle on its altar all year. Those that >>>>>> >>>>> didn't were >>>>> >>>>>> penalized. The gift of the candle was a sign of official approval >>>>>> >>>>> by the >>>>> >>>>>> city. >>>>>> >>>>>> Andrew E. Larsen >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Oct 19, 2009, at 6:54 PM, Dr Jim Bugslag wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and >>>>>> >>> culture >>> >>>>>>> This is a large subject, and I have never seen any really good >>>>>>> >>>>> study of >>>>> >>>>>>> it, but you are certainly right about the votive use of candles. >>>>>>> >>>>> It was >>>>> >>>>>>> common for someone to be "measured for a candle" in relation to an >>>>>>> >>>>> expected >>>>> >>>>>>> miracle cure at the shrine of a saint, the candle in question being >>>>>>> >>>>> either >>>>> >>>>>>> the length of the person or their weight. There were also >>>>>>> >>>>> trindles, which >>>>> >>>>>>> were long tapers, usually wound into a skein. The city of Chartres >>>>>>> >>>>> annually >>>>> >>>>>>> offered one to the cathedral that was as long as the circumference >>>>>>> >>>>> of the >>>>> >>>>>>> city walls. And there were all sorts of miraculous candles, as >>>>>>> >>>>> well. I >>>>> >>>>>>> believe that S. Maria Maggiore in Rome claimed one of four candles >>>>>>> >>>>> that were >>>>> >>>>>>> believed to have descended from heaven around the Virgin Mary at >>>>>>> >>>>> the birth >>>>> >>>>>>> of Christ, and in the early 11th century, the Virgin showed up in >>>>>>> >>>>> person at >>>>> >>>>>>> Arras, leaving the Holy Candle there, with instructions on how to >>>>>>> >>>>> use its >>>>> >>>>>>> wax to cure the mal des ardents. It was usually believed that such >>>>>>> >>>>> candles >>>>> >>>>>>> could burn without being consumed, and other miraculous candles >>>>>>> >>>>> were often >>>>> >>>>>>> created using bits of their wax. >>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>> Jim >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Cecilia Gaposchkin wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and >>>>>>>> >>>>> culture >>>>> >>>>>>>> Hello all, >>>>>>>> I'm just now catching up on this thread, and it catches my >>>>>>>> attention >>>>>>>> because I have just been reading some miracle and pilgrimage >>>>>>>> >>>>> stories, and >>>>> >>>>>>>> everyone is always pledging candles, and giving candles, and >>>>>>>> >>>>> buying candles >>>>> >>>>>>>> - candles of quite enormous proportions: candles the length of the >>>>>>>> >>>>> tomb, >>>>> >>>>>>>> candles the length of a sick son, candles the length and shape of >>>>>>>> >>>>> a lame >>>>> >>>>>>>> leg, and so forth - to the shrine. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> When, as a graduate student, I used to lecture at the >>>>>>>> Cloisters, >>> I >>> >>>>> had >>>>> >>>>>>>> some pithy and almost certainly inaccurate line about the desire >>>>>>>> >>>>> for light >>>>> >>>>>>>> in churches, the "donations" of candles and [ahem, this is where >>>>>>>> >>>>> it becomes >>>>> >>>>>>>> methodologically dubious], and appearance of stained glass with >>>>>>>> Gothic >>>>>>>> architecture and the "desire" for "light". >>>>>>>> I'm not really asking for an explanation of that crazy >>>>>>>> argument. >>> But >>> >>>>>>>> rather, if we're talking about medieval lighting, can anyone talk >>>>>>>> >>>>> abit about >>>>> >>>>>>>> the function/economics/aesthetics/and/osprituality of the "candle" >>>>>>>> >>>>> in the >>>>> >>>>>>>> medieval churches. It seems alot of people were spending alot of >>>>>>>> >>>>> money - >>>>> >>>>>>>> even money they didn't have much of - on candles. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> cecilia >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 12:18 PM, John McCulloh <[log in to unmask] >>>>>>>> <mailto: >>>>>>>> [log in to unmask]>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion >>>>>>>> >>> and >>> >>>>>>>> culture >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I had just looked up the reference to suggest the same article. >>>>>>>> It is fascinating reading. Ekirch presents evidence that, >>>>>>>> before >>>>>>>> the advent of cheap electrical lighting, people went to bed at >>>>>>>> dusk woke up around midnight to relieve themselves, eat and >>>>>>>> socialize, and then nodded off for their "second sleep." >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> For medievalists it suggests that monks getting up in the middle >>>>>>>> of the night were not really practicing asceticism. They were >>>>>>>> following a typical sleep pattern. The monastic element in >>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>> vigils was their prayer. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> John >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> John M. McCulloh >>>>>>>> Professor Office >>>>>>>> tel: 785-532-0373 >>>>>>>> Department of History Deptal >>>>>>>> tel: 785-532-6730 >>>>>>>> Eisenhower Hall FAX: >>>>>>>> 785-532-7004 >>>>>>>> Kansas State University >>>>>>>> Manhattan, KS 66506-1002 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>> From: "Shannon McSheffrey" <[log in to unmask] >>>>>>>> < >>>>>>>> To: [log in to unmask] >>>>>>>> < >>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, October 19, 2009 8:21:35 AM GMT -06:00 US/Canada >>>>>>>> >>>>> Central >>>>> >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [M-R] Medieval lighting >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion >>>>>>>> >>> and >>> >>>>>>>> culture >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On preindustrial sleeping patterns, some might find this article >>>>>>>> interesting: A. Roger Ekirch, "Sleep We Have Lost: >>>>>>>> Pre-industrial >>>>>>>> Slumber in >>>>>>>> the British Isles," The American Historical Review 106:2 >>>>>>>> >>>>> (April, 2001) >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://www.historycooperative.org/journals/ahr/106.2/ah000343.html. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Shannon >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Dr. Shannon McSheffrey >>>>>>>> Professor and Chair, Department of History >>>>>>>> Concordia University >>>>>>>> 1455 de Maisonneuve Blvd. W. >>>>>>>> Montreal, Quebec CANADA H3G 1M8 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [log in to unmask] < >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ********************************************************************** >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR >>>>>>>> >>>>> NAME >>>>> >>>>>>>> to: [log in to unmask] < >>>>>>>> To send a message to the list, address it to: >>>>>>>> [log in to unmask] >>>>>>>> < >>>>>>>> To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion >>>>>>>> to: [log in to unmask] < >>>>>>>> In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, >>>>>>>> >>>>> write to: >>>>> >>>>>>>> [log in to unmask] >>>>>>>> < >>>>>>>> For further information, visit our web site: >>>>>>>> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ********************************************************************** >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR >>>>>>>> >>>>> NAME >>>>> >>>>>>>> to: [log in to unmask] < >>>>>>>> To send a message to the list, address it to: >>>>>>>> [log in to unmask] >>>>>>>> < >>>>>>>> To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion >>>>>>>> to: [log in to unmask] < >>>>>>>> In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, >>>>>>>> >>>>> write to: >>>>> >>>>>>>> [log in to unmask] >>>>>>>> < >>>>>>>> For further information, visit our web site: >>>>>>>> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> 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the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion >>>>>>> to: [log in to unmask] >>>>>>> In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write >>>>>>> >>>>> to: >>>>> >>>>>>> [log in to unmask] >>>>>>> For further information, visit our web site: >>>>>>> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> ********************************************************************** >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME >>>>>> to: [log in to unmask] >>>>>> To send a message to the list, address it to: >>>>>> [log in to unmask] >>>>>> To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion >>>>>> to: [log in to unmask] >>>>>> In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, >>>>>> write >>> to: >>> >>>>>> [log in to unmask] >>>>>> For further information, visit our web site: >>>>>> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> 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