Hello
Personally I’ve never had a problem with coal and in general it
has done me more good than harm by keeping me warm in those rainy Snowdonia project
days. Just to confirm and reiterate that which I have already discussed with
Nik:
Carbazole and DBF can both be formed naturally, albeit in small
quantity. The mechanism of synthesis requires temperatures in excess of 150C
with sustained (3-4 days) oxygen depletion on order to form the epoxide/imine
by the cyclization reactions (yes, it is a word – I have had much debate over
this with many people, just like directionality in CSI, apparently). These
compounds can therefore be found in small quantities in coal beds.
Dave Clark obviously has a downer on Wales, he’s not Feeling
Glad All Over. (ouch). Sorry David, poor, poor joke and I’m sure you’ve never
heard it before ;)
Russell
From: Contaminated Land Management Discussion
List [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Dave
Clark
Sent: 08 October 2009 11:55
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Carbazole and dibenzofuran
Wales is......
David Clark
Senior Geoenvironmental Engineer
Tel: 0113 3950665
Leeds City Council
Development Department
Geotechnical Section
Ring Road
Middleton
Leeds
LS10 4AX
Nik
Reynolds <[log in to unmask]> 08/10/2009
11:50
|
|
Cheers Russell,
So they can be both naturally derived as well as synthetically derived.
Maybe more work is required on these compounds than is currently
available (whole coal PAH issue and whether coal per se is hazardous to human
health - is the North West of England and South Wales condemned???).
Regards
Nik
Mr N Reynolds
BSc(Hons),
MSc, CGeol, FGS, EurGeol
Senior
Environmental Geologist
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From: Russell Corbyn
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 08 October 2009 11:38
To: Nik Reynolds
Subject: RE: Carbazole and dibenzofuran
Nik
I
have discussed the Carbazole and DBF formation in natural coals with one of my
friend who worked on his PhD in coal tars and PAHs at Silkolene and he has
confirmed although rare these compounds could be found naturally in coal beds
if the conditions were correct (temperature of >150C, for 3 or 4 days and
with sufficient oxygen depletion). We have had a brief brainstorm on the
synthesis routes and find that it is totally possible under the said
conditions. Therefore one would say if it can, it will....
Cheers
Russ
From: Russell Corbyn
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 07 October 2009 15:14
To: Nik Reynolds
Subject: RE: Carbazole and dibenzofuran
Nik
I’ll
just get my pencil, sir. J
Wow.
OK. I once worked in a dye lab where we tried lots of diazotisation reactions
and this can be used to cyclitise (?) the azo link. The main reaction involves
cyclitization by Borsche-Dreschel so could potentially occur during the coal
gasification and iminisation of anthracene therefore I suspect that the
chlorinated furan would only be by people burning the coal??? Unless
chlorination of the coal has previously occurred. Both will be present at coal
tar production/management sites I think.
So
my best assumption here would be that Carbazole can occur naturally although
I’m sceptical about naturally occurring furans, especially at noticeable
concentrations.
Is
that about as useful as a handbrake on a canoe?
Russell
Russell
Corbyn MRSC FGS
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From: Nik Reynolds
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 07 October 2009 15:02
To: Russell Corbyn
Subject: RE: Carbazole and dibenzofuran
Thanks Russell. Because they always appear
together is that because they are both there, or due to their similarly could
be mis-analysed? Sorry to pose a Columbo on you but in NW these are the only
compounds encountered in SVOC suites - trying to work out if coal contains
these compounds (due to natural geological processes) or if these are
anthropomorphic compounds, or both.
Regards
Nik
Mr N Reynolds
BSc(Hons),
MSc, CGeol, FGS, EurGeol
Senior
Environmental Geologist
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From: Russell Corbyn
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 07 October 2009 14:58
To: Nik Reynolds
Subject: RE: Carbazole and dibenzofuran
Basically
it is the amino version of the dibenzofuran.
Identical
structure (apart from the obvious) and the O, or N, have lone pairs that make
them very similar in their fate.
Theres
a lot more to go into, but that is essentially it.
Cheers
Russell
Russell
Corbyn MRSC FGS
Senior
Environmental Chemist
CMT
(Testing) Limited
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From: Contaminated Land
Management Discussion List [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
On Behalf Of Nik Reynolds
Sent: 07 October 2009 14:41
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Carbazole and dibenzofuran
Apologies if this query is blindingly obvious, but being a geologist rather
than a chemist/toxicologist... (re: Corby enquiry), can anyone tell me why
carbazole and dibenzofuran tend to be intrinsically linked. These are
common compounds which crop up again and again with SVOC suites and are often
the only compounds with positive results (above lod).
Regards
Nik
Mr N Reynolds
BSc(Hons),
MSc, CGeol, FGS, EurGeol
Senior
Environmental Geologist
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