No, I dont record thoughts here. I start typing and am frequently surprised what appears on screen. C --- On Fri, 18/9/09, richard pemberton <[log in to unmask]> wrote: From: richard pemberton <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] the political is the psychological? To: [log in to unmask] Date: Friday, 18 September, 2009, 12:03 PM Craig   I thought this list was one of your thought diaries.   Richard On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 10:03 AM, CRAIG NEWNES <[log in to unmask]" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">[log in to unmask]> wrote: I have a list of 64 ways to change your life - all apparently very simple. I have yet to meet someone who is prepared to try even a couple - the arguments against "don't bother with underwear" or "never pay for a haircut" could fill a book. Anyone who has ever encouraged someone to keep a "thought diary" would find the reactions familiar as will many many new CBT therapists. Buying into the idea that we should attempt to change people - thru conversation, political action, whatever - is buying into whatever Zeitgeist of a "better world" we have been sucked into ourselves. Thou shalt not kill seems the best and maybe only place to start/finish. Craig --- On Fri, 18/9/09, Tim Anstiss <[log in to unmask]" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">[log in to unmask]> wrote: From: Tim Anstiss <[log in to unmask]" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] the political is the psychological? To: [log in to unmask]" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">[log in to unmask] Date: Friday, 18 September, 2009, 9:15 AM So, assuming people who use mental health services are not completely powerless, but accepting that they are, like many, structurally depowered, is it possible to come up with an alternative list of 5 generic things that would be helpful for them to do or think about doing? Don't listen to X, stop doing Y, consider doing Z? Or is this just to individualistic, niave, and likely to make things worse? They can do nothing, society has to change first? Sent using BlackBerry® from Orange From: Danny Taggart <[log in to unmask]" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">[log in to unmask]> Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 09:08:53 +0100 To: <[log in to unmask]" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] the political is the psychological? I think for me it is the people who the messages are primarily targeted at, the structurally depowered as David put it. I was at a conference the other day, although it actually felt more like a sales pitch, that was launching a 5 ways to wellbeing programme developed by the New Economics Foundation and Foresight. It is essentially about cramming a series of behavioural 'nudges' into a format that can be marketed as a public health imitative in the same way as 5 pieces of fruit and veg was a few years ago. Leaving aside the overly simplistic, manipulative and individualising nature of the whole scheme it occurred to me that many who will be on the receiving end of these messages are people who may be already using mental health services. As such many will have had powerful messages from a range of sources communicated to them about their failure to conform to some ideal of mental wellness. When their attempts to implement the 5 ways to wellbeing do not bring about the mental wellbeing they have been promised, perhaps because they do not address the actual problems which are material and social rather than individual, they will be left with another experience of failure.   In short it felt less like a nudge than a shove.   Danny [def ault]   -----Original Message----- From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List [mailto:[log in to unmask]" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of richard pemberton Sent: 18 September 2009 08:02 To: [log in to unmask]" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">[log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] the political is the psychological? I dont get this at all we are all psychologists and politicians. Some people are more aware of this than others. Destroying Psychology big or small is as Quixotic as destroying politics. Big Pol?       Richard.     On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 6:01 AM, Tim Anstiss <[log in to unmask]" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">[log in to unmask]> wrote: You seem to want it both ways. Nothing changes our behaviour, yet we are in thrall to the advertising and marketing of capitalism. All they are doing is using social marketing, or in the case cited, community based social marketing, and it works. The question for me is how to used social marketing to make the world a better place - but that is part of my problem, I'm sure. Tim Sent using BlackBerry® from Orange From: CRAIG NEWNES <[log in to unmask]" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">[log in to unmask]> Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 16:13:09 -0700 To: <[log in to unmask]" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] the political is the psychological? All rubbish of course. We do what we do. NOTHING changes our behaviour other than the day to day minutiae of action/reaction. And as "behaviour" goes undefined in the piece it is doubly nonsensical. Fred, if you are scared by this you should take more drugs Craig --- On Thu, 17/9/09, Frederic Stansfield <[log in to unmask]" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">[log in to unmask]> wrote: From: Frederic Stansfield <[log in to unmask]" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] the political is the psychological? To: [log in to unmask]" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">[log in to unmask] Date: Thursday, 17 September, 2009, 8:43 PM I listened to this programme. It was very interesting but rather scary. If you missed it, I recommend the repeat.   Frederic Stansfield   1 Coppergate Canterbury Kent CT2 7RT   --- On Thu, 17/9/09, Fryer, David <[log in to unmask]" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">[log in to unmask]> wrote: From: Fryer, David <[log in to unmask]" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">[log in to unmask]> Subject: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] the political is the psychological? To: [log in to unmask]" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">[log in to unmask] Date: Thursday, 17 September, 2009, 7:45 PM Can politicians shape our behaviour? By Martin Rosenbaum Producer, BBC Radio 4's Persuading Us to be Good Are you a good citizen? The kind who doesn't drink too much but always puts the empties in the recycling box? The kind who ignores tempting store credit card offers but does give blood, who saves prudently for your pension while avoiding unprotected sex? In short, the kind who does what the nanny state might want you to do? And if you're not yet perfect, how can the state persuade you to become better? That's the question a growing number of politicians, local government officials, health professionals and think-tank members are grappling with, as they puzzle over how best to change public behaviour to achieve their policy goals.. Personal choices And they are now turning to the increasingly influential ideas of social psychology and behavioural economics in their search for answers. "In many areas now there are limits to the cures that can be achieved by government alone," says the climate change minister, Joan Ruddock. " Some leaflets are more likely to encourage anti-social behaviour than discourage " Martin Rosenbaum Freedom of information blogger "Behaviour change is a very important priority because we know that things like health and the environment are affected by the choices people make." And the Conservatives are also interested, according to the shadow chancellor George Osborne. He argues: "Social psychologists are helping governments around the world design policy solutions that are more effective than big state solutions. If you go with the grain of people's instincts you are more likely to achieve the public policy outcomes you want, rather than sitting in a government department dreaming up some rational scheme that doesn't work in practice." Barnet Council in north west London is one of those local authorities trying to improve its population. " We've got to stop nagging. If nagging worked we'd all be skinny, we'd all be recycling and we'd all be walking to work " Mike Freer, Barnet Council leader In one pilot scheme in Finchley, the residents have been asked to reduce their carbon footprint by turning down their heating, reducing their car use, and so on.. A traditional persuasive strategy would be based on stressing how this could benefit the environment. But the council is going further in testing out techniques of influence. The residents are asked to make pledges in a face-to-face conversation with one of the canvassers who have been going door-to-door in this area. They are only asked to make some limited pledges - to choose three out of nine options on the pledge card they are shown. And posters on lampposts proclaim the number of households in that street who have agreed to participate. Peer pressure In other words, this project is based on enticing people into making a small but face-to-face commitment and then using the force of peer pressure to encourage others. "If you go to someone's door and say 'can you do a great deal for the environment?', they're probably going to back off," says Daniel Delange, of the charity Groundwork, which the council has employed to implement the project. "But if you say 'a little bit for the environment', they feel they can do a little bit and feel good about themselves for doing it." "We put these posters up, so we hope the neighbours see," he adds. "We hope the neighbours will feel 'if they're all doing it, maybe I should be doing it as well'." But there is still some way to go. When we asked one resident if she was impressed by the posters about the number of neighbours taking part, she replied: "Not knowing who the neighbours were, I don't know." For the council leader, Mike Freer, this approach is an idea whose time has come. He says: "The role of the council has shifted away from being a provider of services to being responsible for helping local citizens improve their lives. Nudging people along is a terrific idea, we've got to stop nagging. If nagging worked we'd all be skinny, we'd all be recycling and we'd all be walking to work." The Barnet pilot scheme is being funded by the Department of Communities and Local Government, which wants to examine how well the academic theories involved can be implemented in practice. Similar ideas are also being employed at the national level. If you fill out the "carbon calculator" on the government's Action CO2 campaign site, you will see that at the end it compares your carbon consumption to that of other households like yours. Some of this is based on the work of the leading American social psychologist, Professor Robert Cialdini. He argues that the key role of peer pressure or "social proof" is illustrated by a Californian experiment about trying to reduce household energy consumption. The participants were given information about how cutting consumption could benefit the environment, and also about what other households were doing to save energy. The outcome? "The messages we sent to them about what their neighbours were doing were the only ones that made a difference," he says. New jargon But this also suggests that politicians who complain about how widespread an undesirable behaviour is can inadvertently be encouraging it, because it can help that behaviour become a social norm. " I'm starting to hear local authorities...now talk about 'person-shaping' " Matthew Taylor This applies to everything from young people carrying knives to patients who don't turn up for their medical appointments. Thus Professor Cialdini believes that talk of an "obesity epidemic" simply encourages more obesity. "Instead of normalising the undesirable behaviour, you want to marginalise it," he adds. All this may mean that we have to learn a new item of political terminology. "I'm starting to hear local authorities that were quite recently using the phrase 'place-shaping' as the jargon for what they did now talk about 'person-shaping'," says Matthew Taylor, a former Downing Street policy aide to Tony Blair. The term "person-shaping" probably won't appeal to politicians, but it could increasingly describe what they are trying to do. Persuading Us to be Good will be broadcast on BBC Radio 4 at 20.00 on Tuesday, 15 September, and again at 17.00 on Sunday, 20 September 2009. ___________________________________ The Community Psychology List has a new website/blog at: http://www.communitypsychology.co.uk/ There is a threaded discussion forum: http://www.communitypsychology.co.uk/cgi-bin/discus/discus.cgi There is a twitter feed: http://twitter.com/CommPsychUK To post on the website blog, forum or twitter feed, contact Grant or David at the email addresses below. David Fryer ([log in to unmask]" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">[log in to unmask]) or Grant Jeffrey ([log in to unmask]" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">[log in to unmask]) To unsubscribe or to change your details on this COMMUNITYPSYCHUK list, visit the website: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?A0=COMMUNITYPSYCHUK ___________________________________ The Community Psychology List has a new website/blog at: http://www.communitypsychology.co.uk/ There is a threaded discussion forum: http://www.communitypsychology.co.uk/cgi-bin/discus/discus.cgi There is a twitter feed: http://twitter.com/CommPsychUK To post on the website blog, forum or twitter feed, contact Grant or David at the email addresses below. David Fryer ([log in to unmask]" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">[log in to unmask]) or Grant Jeffrey ([log in to unmask]" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">[log in to unmask]) To unsubscribe or to change your details on this COMMUNITYPSYCHUK list, visit the website: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?A0=COMMUNITYPSYCHUK ___________________________________ The Community Psychology List has a new website/blog at: http://www.communitypsychology.co.uk/ There is a threaded discussion forum: http://www.communitypsychology.co.uk/cgi-bin/discus/discus.cgi There is a twitter feed: http://twitter.com/CommPsychUK To post on the website blog, forum or twitter feed, contact Grant or David at the email addresses below. David Fryer ([log in to unmask]" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">[log in to unmask]) or Grant Jeffrey ([log in to unmask]" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">[log in to unmask]) To unsubscribe or to change your details on this COMMUNITYPSYCHUK list, visit the website: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?A0=COMMUNITYPSYCHUK ___________________________________ The Community Psychology List has a new website/blog at: http://www.communitypsychology.co.uk/ There is a threaded discussion forum: http://www.communitypsychology.co.uk/cgi-bin/discus/discus.cgi There is a twitter feed: http://twitter.com/CommPsychUK To post on the website blog, forum or twitter feed, contact Grant or David at the email addresses below. David Fryer ([log in to unmask]" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">[log in to unmask]) or Grant Jeffrey ([log in to unmask]" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">[log in to unmask]) To unsubscribe or to change your details on this COMMUNITYPSYCHUK list, visit the website: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?A0=COMMUNITYPSYCHUK ___________________________________ The Community Psychology List has a new website/blog at: http://www.communitypsychology.co.uk/ There is a threaded discussion forum: http://www.communitypsychology.co.uk/cgi-bin/discus/discus.cgi There is a twitter feed: http://twitter.com/CommPsychUK To post on the website blog, forum or twitter feed, contact Grant or David at the email addresses below. David Fryer ([log in to unmask]" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">[log in to unmask]) or Grant Jeffrey ([log in to unmask]" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">[log in to unmask]) To unsubscribe or to change your details on this COMMUNITYPSYCHUK list, visit the website: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?A0=COMMUNITYPSYCHUK ___________________________________ The Community Psychology List has a new website/blog at: http://www.communitypsychology.co.uk/ There is a threaded discussion forum: http://www.communitypsychology.co.uk/cgi-bin/discus/discus.cgi There is a twitter feed: http://twitter.com/CommPsychUK To post on the website blog, forum or twitter feed, contact Grant or David at the email addresses below. David Fryer ([log in to unmask]" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">[log in to unmask]) or Grant Jeffrey ([log in to unmask]" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">[log in to unmask]) To unsubscribe or to change your details on this COMMUNITYPSYCHUK list, visit the website: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?A0=COMMUNITYPSYCHUK ___________________________________ The Community Psychology List has a new website/blog at: http://www.communitypsychology.co.uk/ There is a threaded discussion forum: http://www.communitypsychology.co.uk/cgi-bin/discus/discus.cgi There is a twitter feed: http://twitter.com/CommPsychUK To post on the website blog, forum or twitter feed, contact Grant or David at the email addresses below. David Fryer ([log in to unmask]) or Grant Jeffrey ([log in to unmask]) To unsubscribe or to change your details on this COMMUNITYPSYCHUK list, visit the website: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?A0=COMMUNITYPSYCHUK

___________________________________ The Community Psychology List has a new website/blog at: http://www.communitypsychology.co.uk/ There is a threaded discussion forum: http://www.communitypsychology.co.uk/cgi-bin/discus/discus.cgi There is a twitter feed: http://twitter.com/CommPsychUK To post on the website blog, forum or twitter feed, contact Grant or David at the email addresses below. David Fryer ([log in to unmask]) or Grant Jeffrey ([log in to unmask]) To unsubscribe or to change your details on this COMMUNITYPSYCHUK list, visit the website: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?A0=COMMUNITYPSYCHUK