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You have beat me to it, but I do remember times during my own military training been on courses where hallucinations come to the fore. The same justifications that you stated were used by those running these courses. (i.e. jump course, escape and evasion etc...) From what I have read since then on the degradation of reasoning would negate any advantage. The only advantage I might see at this time is the knowledge that you have done it before leads to the thought that you would be able to do it once more. Barton Downey, B.A. B.Ed M.A. M.Ed Sudbury, Ontario Canada From: Outdoor and adventure education research [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Crosbie Sent: 20-Jul-09 16:04 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: (The Third Man Factor) - sleep deficit Although fascinated by concept of sleep depravation for changing cognitive and behaviour patterns I too question the morality of using the "ends" to justify the "means" in OE. Personally I would have thought that any aspect of sleep depravation in OE would be related to providing an increased challenge though night exercises in which some sleep depravation would be an unfortunate consequence, rather than an intention. An alternative benefit may be to demonstrate what people may achieve even when they are tired, especially if this is a team effort which would providing a shared experience with resulting in team building attributes. In either case I would not expect the depravation of sleep to reach any level that may be described as sleep depravation. On a different subject, I hate to think what my IQ may now be, having endured years of quite severe sleep deprevation in in training and operational contexts in military situations! John Crosbie B.Ed.(Hons), APIOL, Ph.D. Researcher (Outdoor Education) Simon Laurie House Moray House School of Education The University of Edinburgh Holyrood Road Edinburgh EH8 8AQ tel: 0131 651 6384 home: 017687 73040 mob: 07831645353 Email: [log in to unmask] Hello outdoor researchers, As this is a research list, it may be helpful to explore how research informs practice (and vice-versa) regarding what appears to be a strand of thinking and practice that supports the use of sleep deprivation as a deliberate strategy for achieving some purposes associated with outdoor and adventure education. Even putting the ethical issues aside (which I find very difficult to do), shortage of sleep can easily result in retardation ... "A report in Sunday's Observer says that every hour of sleep lost leads to a drop of one IQ point. Two more points go if another hour is skipped. This means it is easy for someone with an average IQ to become borderline retarded in the space of a week, the paper says. " <http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/300940.stm> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/300940.stm A Harvard Magazine review concludes that shortage of sleep has no benefits ... “We are living in the middle of history’s greatest experiment in sleep deprivation and we are all a part of that experiment,” says Stickgold. “It’s not inconceivable to me that we will discover that there are major social, economic, and health consequences to that experiment. Sleep deprivation doesn’t have any good side effects.” <http://harvardmagazine.com/2005/07/deep-into-sleep.html> http://harvardmagazine.com/2005/07/deep-into-sleep.html ... and leads to a very simple conclusion ... The moral of much sleep research is startlingly simple. Your mother was right: You’ll get sick, become fat, and won’t work as well if you don’t get a good night’s sleep. <http://harvardmagazine.com/2005/07/deep-into-sleep.html> http://harvardmagazine.com/2005/07/deep-into-sleep.html Are there yet any OAE research studies that provide any evidence of the benefits of sleep deprivation? I think not. Unless and until such evidence appears we can sidestep the ethical issues. I thought Maslow's view was that it was difficult to achieve higher goals unless basic needs are met. Sleep is a basic need and without enough of it, educational goals are harder to achieve. I see 'The Third Man Factor' as a warning from misadventures (well outside OAE) - with absolutely no guarantee that hallucinations when tired will result in the best course of action for survival. Sleep well my friends (and let others do so) - that is what the research recommends. Roger Roger Greenaway Reviewing Skills Training < <http://reviewing.co.uk/> http://reviewing.co.uk> The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in Scotland, with registration number SC005336. __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4262 (20090720) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com