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My point exactly Matt. Having worked in universities, I know access to students is problematic, I know information literacy or info skills stuff (or whatever it gets called) is often delivered in difficult circumstances, whether it be an inappropriate timing or location or facilities. And I don't think students are idiots, I wouldn't think any less of a student for being occupied by all the other stuff going on in freshers' week rather than library arrangements. I think Chris's (as an HE person) point is that it's frustrating to suddenly discover students having difficulties in their 2nd year, when you've been wanting to help them from the beginning. Yes, the dissertation is often a catalyst for independent learning - but of course that comes at the end when it could all be too late. My point is that we're all in it together, particularly in the case of nursing (& other healthcare) students, when they (potentially) have access to both university and NHS librarians. My question is, what can we do to make it better, and help make all students highly information literate, despite the education system's best efforts to avoid this? Okay, it's not just our job, but a little triumph in the face of adversity is always good. ________________________________ From: A list for health related libraries within the North West of England [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Matt Holland Sent: 09 July 2009 10:40 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Eyes on Evidence fawning letter Dear Colleagues, At the risk of having the rest of my head shot off (you know who you are :->) can I just respond on behalf of colleagues who work in HE to the point viz. "s/he should have had "info skills" training of some sort from the university". Yes that's true but here are some of the issues HE Librarians might be struggling with: 1) The problem of induction. Students get up to 20 sessions in the first few weeks from Sports to Students Union and Library. The messages you can get across in all this noise are limited. I used to say that the best you could do is there is a Library, there is a Librarian, Athens is important and there are lots of electronic resources. 2) Access to students is problematic. The curriculum is loaded from the off. Contact time is limited. Librarians won't be able to get access to students easily if at all after induction. Lucky to meet them 2 or 3 times in a three year degree in a planned session. 3) Students face many distractions in the first year. Most are "typical" teenagers. Yes they are not all Information Angels or Library Phobics. There is a lot of space in between i.e. typical. 4) Teaching styles at school are very prescriptive at the moment. Many will arrive without having ever encountered what Universities call "independent learning" or having made much (any) use of a library. This is a big problem for universities which many will not change until years 2 or 3. Dissertation is usually the catalyst for this. 5) Teaching in the first year is very prescriptive despite what is said in 4) above. It dosen't necessarily require intensive Library use. Students are great networkers and refer to each other rather than a Librarian. 6) Most HE resources are E. The Library is not a place but a website for most. It's complicated to get across authentication procedures, access routines and the many (of the 100's) of databases students have access to. So what do you do? Well you adopt the many channels same message option, websites, leaflets posters, advocacy with students and staff at meetings. The same things we all do. What we might be wary off is the view that "What are those HE Librarians doing - never heard of the Library!" Could take an alternative view and say what can we do to help out being giving mutually reinforcing messages. Make sure for example every student is told the name and contact details of their HE Librarian? Do we have access to University Library websites to understand how students from various universities access resources? Love not war. Best Wishes Matt Please note that North West Ambulance Service - NHS Trust may monitor email traffic data and also the content of email for the purposes of security and staff training. This message contains confidential information and is intended only for [log in to unmask] If you are not [log in to unmask] you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify [log in to unmask] immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. E-mail transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. Matt Holland therefore does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message, which arise as a result of e-mail transmission. If verification is required please request a hard-copy version. Please consider the environment before printing this email. ________________________________ From: A list for health related libraries within the North West of England [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Hopkins Emily (NHSNW) Sent: 09 July 2009 09:50 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Eyes on Evidence fawning letter It does remind me of the testimonials to dubious herbal remedies/dodgy prize draws you sometimes see in Sunday supplements, junk mail from Reader's Digest etc, along the lines of "I drank this mystery green gloop for a week and lost 15 stone. Fantastic! - Mrs P, Much Wenlock" and "Yes, I really did win 3 billion pounds by sticking a fake car key on a postcard! - Mr R, Hartlepool". I also wonder what s/he was using before the NHS Evidence revelation? Is it an issue of not knowing where to search, how to search, or who to ask? As Chris says s/he should have had "info skills" training of some sort from the university. It does raise questions for ourselves and our services, I'm just wondering what those questions are! In light of nursing moving to all-degree, the idea being that nurses will have a more robust and rounded education and consequently have more initiative, are there other things that need to be addressed (by inf profs as much as teaching staff) about nursing education? Or am I wondering too much about an imaginary, or completely mad person? Emily ________________________________ From: A list for health related libraries within the North West of England [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Matt Holland Sent: 09 July 2009 09:17 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Eyes on Evidence fawning letter Dear all, May be I have been on too many management courses (Who sold you this then?) but the point surely is that it's not the customers fault if they can't find our service? There is also the traditional tactic of schooling grateful customers (of NHS Evidence in this case) to send letters of praise. Perhaps we should just take it for what it is and not give it the oxygen of publicity. Best Wishes Matt Please note that North West Ambulance Service - NHS Trust may monitor email traffic data and also the content of email for the purposes of security and staff training. This message contains confidential information and is intended only for [log in to unmask] If you are not [log in to unmask] you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify [log in to unmask] immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. E-mail transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. Matt Holland therefore does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message, which arise as a result of e-mail transmission. If verification is required please request a hard-copy version. Please consider the environment before printing this email. ________________________________ From: A list for health related libraries within the North West of England [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Chris Holly Sent: 09 July 2009 09:03 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Eyes on Evidence fawning letter He/she could have used a bit of initiative and asked the advice of her academic subject librarian as well as the NHS librarian. Is he/she sure she is 2nd year? How did she get there? Chris Chris Holly Site Librarian Library and Information Services University of Chester Faculty of Health & Social Care Bache Hall Education Centre Countess Way Chester CH2 1BR Tel: 01244 512288 Fax: 01244 382353 >>> "Annis Shan (Ashton, Leigh and Wigan PCT)" <[log in to unmask]> 08/07/2009 13:31 >>> She was probably a man, John! Shan x -----Original Message----- From: A list for health related libraries within the North West of England [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Addison John (RW6) PAHNT Sent: 08 July 2009 12:07 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Eyes on Evidence fawning letter Alternatively, EL (see below) could have shown a bit of flipping initiative and done herself a favour by asking an NHS librarian for assistance. It's what we're good at. "Dear Eyes on Evidence, As a second year nursing student I'd just like to say what a bonus I think a service like NHS Evidence will be for my studies. I hadn't heard about the site until I visited your stand at the NHS Innovation EXPO. I'd just finished a project and one of your staff showed me how to search for the information I'd used for my work via NHS Evidence. Details I'd spent hours looking for were there straight away. I was kicking myself because had I known about it a week earlier I could have saved myself so much time. Now I know about it I will definitely be using it to research future assignments - and saving some time! EL, student" John Addison Library Manager Education Centre Library Royal Oldham Hospital Rochdale Road Oldham OL1 2JH Tel: 0161 627 8463 ************************************************************************ ******************************************** This message may contain confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient please inform the sender that you have received the message in error before deleting it. 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Can you help cut back on the 18 million tonnes of carbon dioxide which the NHS produces each year? NHS North West is looking for ideas for saving on energy, heating, travel for staff, patients and visitors, the products we use every day. Visit www.sdu.nhs.uk to help shape the NHS Carbon Reduction Strategy The information contained in this email may be subject to public disclosure under the NHS Code of Openness or the Freedom of Information Act 2000. Unless the information is legally exempt from disclosure, the confidentiality of this e-mail and your reply cannot be guaranteed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the NHS North West. If you are not the intended recipient, be advised that you have received this email in error and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this email is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error please notify the sender. 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