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The very same. 2009/5/13 Judy Prince <[log in to unmask]> > Which Shaksper wrote MNT? > > 2009/5/13 David Bircumshaw <[log in to unmask]> > > > It is clear to me that the general drift of comments in this thread > display > > an absence of a defined theory of the nature of theory, without which > > theory, theory theoretically cannot theorised or theoretically be, in > > theory > > or not. > > In A Midsummer Night's Theme we see what can happen if you cavort with > the > > theories. > > > > 2009/5/13 Judy Prince <[log in to unmask]> > > > > > And then there's The Best, Art Tatum: > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYcZGPLAnHA&feature=related > > > Judy > > > > > > 2009/5/13 Douglas Barbour <[log in to unmask]> > > > > > > > I admit that I may be wrong in thinking that music theory & poetic > > theory > > > > arent quite the same thing. I'd respond to this John, by saying that > a > > > lot > > > > of the 'theory' can only be learned by reding the poems, & then > trying > > to > > > > write the way that excites you most, not copying others' poem exactly > > so > > > > much as seeing how those poems do what they do. And to see that, one > > must > > > > read poems, a lot of them. > > > > > > > > Which is a bit like paying a lot, while also asking questions, like > > that > > > > one Miles asked Dizzy. > > > > > > > > Doug > > > > On 13-May-09, at 9:43 AM, John Herbert Cunningham wrote: > > > > > > > > Until recently, Dominic, all the great composers were known as great > > > >> improvisers - Bach Beethoven, Mozart, etc. This meant that they were > > > able > > > >> to > > > >> play by ear and, in fact, because of this skill, they were able to > > > notate > > > >> what they heard in their heads. Many composers these days compose > via > > > >> mathematical algorithms so I cannot say anything about their ability > > to > > > >> hear > > > >> music. As to Jazz, Andrew, it used to be the case that there was a > > > certain > > > >> amount of pride in jazz musicians saying that they were untutored. > > > Recent > > > >> investigations and writing on the early and later jazz giants > > indicating > > > >> that most of them were schooled in theory. Dizzy Gillespie and > Charlie > > > >> Parker would talk for hours about chords and structure. The > legendary > > > >> cutting sessions in Kansas City and the same type of sessions in New > > > York > > > >> required musicians to be able to modulate their way through complex > > > >> chordal > > > >> patterns. Legend has it that Ornette Coleman taught himself theory > > while > > > >> operating an elevator in L.A. The joke that others were to tell is > > that > > > he > > > >> got it wrong. This doesn't really matter much as he went on to > create > > > his > > > >> own harmelodic theory. So whether classical or jazz, if you want to > > > >> compose > > > >> then you'd better have your chops down. I think the same works for > > > >> poetry. > > > >> The better a poet you become, the more you've paid attention to > > literary > > > >> theory and the more poetry reflecting this theory you've read never > > mind > > > >> the > > > >> time spent trying to figure out what another poet is saying and > what > > > the > > > >> thing is in the way that say it that makes that poem and poet > > effective. > > > >> > > > > > > > > Douglas Barbour > > > > [log in to unmask] > > > > > > > > http://www.ualberta.ca/~dbarbour/ > > > > > > > > Latest books: > > > > Continuations (with Sheila E Murphy) > > > > http://www.uap.ualberta.ca/UAP.asp?LID=41&bookID=664 > > > > Wednesdays' > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://abovegroundpress.blogspot.com/2008/03/new-from-aboveground-press_10.html > > > > > > > > and this is 'life' and we owe at least this much > > > > contemplation to our western fact: to Rise, > > > > Decline, Fall, to futility and larks, > > > > to the bright crustaceans of the oversky. > > > > > > > > Phyllis Webb > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > David Bircumshaw > > "Nothing can be done in the face > > of ordinary unhappiness" - PP > > Website and A Chide's Alphabet > > http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk > > The Animal Subsides http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html > > Leicester Poetry Society: http://www.poetryleicester.co.uk > > > -- David Bircumshaw "Nothing can be done in the face of ordinary unhappiness" - PP Website and A Chide's Alphabet http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk The Animal Subsides http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html Leicester Poetry Society: http://www.poetryleicester.co.uk