Ian Tickle wrote:
[log in to unmask]" type="cite">
Sorry I don't have instant access to Acta A here so can't comment in the
light of the Flack & Shmueli paper.  But it seems to me that Kevin's
point is still valid, 

I think that I stated that I agree with him ?

[log in to unmask]" type="cite">
regardless of whether or not the anomalously
scattering atoms have different ADPs from the average or not.  I agree
that this would have the complicating effects described, but I don't see
that it's necessary to invoke it as an explanation.  

I don't invoke it as an explanation. I simply commented on the (first-order) independence of Bijvoet or Friedel (anomalous) intensity ratios with respect to atomic displacement parameters. Such Bijvoet ratios (e.g. RMS(Delta_ano)/mean(I) or the same variant with F's)  are widely advocated in the methodological SAD/MAD literature as estimates for gauging the theoretical signal strength of anomalous scattering. Of course we can debate over the relevance of such theoretical estimates for practical purposes, but I really just wanted to point out that these ratios are (to first order) independent of atomic displacements.

[log in to unmask]" type="cite">
The reason is that
the anomalous phasing power doesn't depend on Rano = <|delta-ano|>/<I>,
  

I agree. R_{ano} was brought up earlier in this thread, so I just commented on this. Personally, I also have found over the years that R_{ano} is not a particularly useful indicator for assessing the feasibility of SAD or MAD phasing.

I trust that the discussion of what is a good indicator would offer enough material for another thread.

Cheers

Marc




[log in to unmask]" type="cite">
it depends on the anomalous signal/noise ratio =
<|delta-ano|/s.u.(delta-ano)>, or something related to it, and the
standard uncertainty of course depends largely on the background).  So
if the fall-off due to overall thermal motion etc as described by Kevin
causes the S/N ratio to dip much below 1 then the anomalous signal won't
help you.

Cheers

-- Ian

  
-----Original Message-----
From: [log in to unmask] [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
    
On
  
Behalf Of Marc SCHILTZ
Sent: 13 May 2009 11:26
To: Kevin Cowtan; [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [ccp4bb] phasing with se-met at low resolution

Kevin Cowtan wrote:
    
This is absolutely correct - in the analysis you present, the
non-anomalous scattering drops with resolution, but the anomalous
      
part
  
does not. And since counting noise varies with intensity, we should
actually be better off at high resolution, since there is less
non-anomalous scattering to contribute to the noise! (This is
      
somewhat
  
masked by the background, however).

So why don't we see this in practice?

The reason is that you've missed out one important term: the atomic
displacement parameters (B-factors), which describe a combination of
thermal motion and positional disorder between unit cells. This
      
motion
  
and disorder applies equally to the core and outer electrons, and so
causes a drop-off in both the anomalous and non-anomalous
      
scattering,
  
over and above that caused by the atomic scattering factors.

      
I agree with everything but would like to add the following: if we
assume an overall atomic displacement parameter, the drop-off in both
the anomalous and non-anomalous scattering is the same. Therefore, the
ratio of anomalous differences over mean intensity (which is what
    
comes
  
closest to R_{ano} - in whichever way this is defined) is essentially
unaffected by atomic displacements and should still go up at high
resolution, irrespective of the values of the atomic displacement
parameter !

Things are more complicated if individual isotropic atomic
    
displacements
  
are considered, because the anomalously scattering atoms (e.g. the Se
atoms) may have significantly larger or smaller displacement
    
parameters
  
than the average.

All this is discussed in section 4.4. of Flack & Shmueli (2007) Acta
Cryst. A63, 257--265.

Marc

    
But your reasoning was sound as far as it went, and it is a point
      
which
  
many people haven't recognised!

Kevin


Raja Dey wrote:

      
Dear James,

I don't understand why measuring anomalous differences has nothing
        
to
  
do
    
with resolution.

Heavy atoms

scatter anomalously because the inner shell electrons

of the heavy atom cannot be considered to be free anymore

as was assumed for normal Thomson scattering. As a result

the atomic scattering factor of the heavy atom becomes

complex and this compex contribution to the structure

factor leads to non-equality of Friedel pairs in non-centro

symmetric systems(excluding centric zone).  This feature is taken
advantage in

phase  determination. Since the inner shell electrons

being relatively more strongly bound in heavy atoms

 contribute to anomalous scattering and  its effect

is more discernable for high angle reflections . Here

the anomalous component of the scattering do not

decrease much because of the effectively small atomic

radii (only inner shell being effective). FOR  HIGH

ANGLE REFLECTIONS ANOMALOUS DATA

BECOMES IMPORTANT.

Raja

        
--
Marc SCHILTZ      http://lcr.epfl.ch
    



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-- 
Marc SCHILTZ      http://lcr.epfl.ch