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Yes, his Poetics is still a good and stimulating read, isn't it! And not nearly so rigid as it is sometimes considered in interpretation... On Fri, Apr 10, 2009 at 10:26 AM, Sheila Murphy <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > Alison, I especially enjoy that quotation from Aristotle. Having studied his > aesthetics so intensively, particularly with respect to music (one of my > dual majors undergrad), I found much to consider there. Thanks! Sheila > > On Thu, Apr 9, 2009 at 4:59 PM, Alison Croggon <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > >> Aristotle said - intriguingly, I think - that plot was the "argument" >> of a play. Which is not quite how people conventionally think of >> narrative... >> >> On Fri, Apr 10, 2009 at 8:11 AM, Douglas Barbour >> <[log in to unmask]> wrote: >> > Well, it's unending because people get so confused, Jon. And far too many >> > end p discussing only what they perceive t be 'meaning' or something, >> which >> > ends up being content -- because they're dis-content? >> > >> > I agree that the dichotomy form/content does nothing except start >> arguments >> > unending(ly). >> > >> > I like your take on style/form, although I suspect it might start as many >> > arguments once we try to get down to details, especially as to who works >> the >> > beat best. On the other hand, perhaps I have learned so much from Pound >> only >> > at what you're calling the style level, in the micro-, not the macro-cosm >> of >> > his work; not sure about that. What bothers me is that limiting, I think, >> > factor 'plot' which you introduced. >> > >> > Alison is right, it's so much easier to get away from teh problem in >> music >> > or visual art.... >> > >> > We're domed to work with words.... >> > >> > Doug >> > On 8-Apr-09, at 5:18 PM, Jon Corelis wrote: >> > >> >> Two comments orthogonal to how this unending aesthetic dispute is >> >> usually considered: >> >> >> >> 1) The argument about the relationship between poetic form and >> >> content assumes that a poem is an utterance, that is, essentially an >> >> utterance and not some other sort of thing which uses utterance. >> >> Today this means a text. A text consists of what is being said, which >> >> is its content, and how it is being said, which is its form. >> >> Aristotle, however, conceived of a poem not as an utterance but as an >> >> action. From this viewpoint, the distinction between form and content >> >> disappears: the poem's action is not a linguistic one but a mental >> >> and emotional enactment (existing at the boundary of the conscious and >> >> unconscious, though A. couldn't have put it that way) which is >> >> expressed by utterance. Talking about the content of a poem makes as >> >> little sense as talking about the content of a religious ritual. Or >> >> to put it another way, it's like trying to separate the dancer from >> >> the dance. >> >> >> >> 2) Which brings us designedly to Yeats, who in a famous passage in >> >> his introduction to The Oxford Book of Modern Poetry said that Pound >> >> had more style than anyone, but more style than form. Yeats seems to >> >> be talking about a different fundamental dichotomy than form and >> >> content: what could the relationship between form and style be? I >> >> think the clue might be to consider the issue in visual arts. Take a >> >> drawing: the way the lines look is the style, and the way the picture >> >> looks is the form. (This suggests why Pound's verse is so impressive >> >> examined through a magnifying glass and so frustrating viewed at arm's >> >> length.) In poetry, form would be what the poem does (its enactment >> >> or Aristotelian plot) and style would be how it communicates what it >> >> does -- a distinction which seems to me more useful to contemplate >> >> than the posthumously abused equine of form/content. >> >> >> >> -- >> >> =============================================== >> >> >> >> Jon Corelis http://jcorelis.googlepages.com/joncorelis >> >> >> >> =============================================== >> >> >> > >> > Douglas Barbour >> > [log in to unmask] >> > >> > http://www.ualberta.ca/~dbarbour/ <http://www.ualberta.ca/%7Edbarbour/> >> > >> > Latest books: >> > Continuations (with Sheila E Murphy) >> > http://www.uap.ualberta.ca/UAP.asp?LID=41&bookID=664 >> > Wednesdays' >> > >> http://abovegroundpress.blogspot.com/2008/03/new-from-aboveground-press_10.html >> > >> > The covers of this book are too far apart. >> > >> > Ambrose Bierce >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au >> Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com >> Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com >> > -- Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com