Nice to hear you kiddies squabbling amongst yourselves.
Hal
"Never underestimate the power of stupid
people in large groups."
--George Carlin
Halvard Johnson
================
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http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org
On Thu, Apr 2, 2009 at 7:34 PM, Martin Walker <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Well, I don't buy into this argument at all, Judy. "-isms" "negative
> stereotypes" - falaffel. Making observations about behaviour or a process
> (of aging, for instance) has nothing to do with -isms or stereotypes. I do
> not define/defile someone by making observations unless I reduce them to
> simplified or allegorized forms of such observations. Do you think Andrew
> was reducing himself? If I say "some young people have lousy street manners
> & hog the sidewalk" you think I don't know about all the qualifying
> circumstances? What is this? I personally feel awful about getting older
> because my concentration & my physical tone is going - I may not joke about
> it to help myself gain some distance through laughter because the class of
> senior citizens is thereby defamed? Goodbye Shakespeare, goodbye Sterne,
> goodbye Da Ponte/Mozart (who made the most awfully demeaning toilet jokes in
> his letters, simply brought shame & scandal to the noble realm of musical
> composition), goodbye Fawlty Towers, Bill Hicks, shut up Joyce...where are
> we going?
> cheers
> Martin
> _______________________________________
> But I am but a nameless sort of person
> (A broken Dandy lately on my travels)
> And take for rhyme, to hook my rambling verse on,
> The first that Walker's Lexicon unravels
>
> - George Gordon, Lord Byron
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Judy Prince" <
> [log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 12:43 AM
>
> Subject: Re: Blake poem
>
>
> I wasn't joking, Martin, and I knew Andrew was being humourous. Folks
>> apply
>> PC differently and variously, but I wanted Andrew and others to consider
>> the
>> issue. I've certainly said ageist things about myself as do many over-50
>> folks I know. Usually I've made the remark automatically as a brief,
>> self-deprecating intro. No matter what the reason and circumstances may
>> be,
>> though, ageist comments are negative stereotypes. I'm trying to stop
>> 'buying into' it, which is taking some work, but I think it's worth it.
>> Best,
>>
>> Judy
>>
>>
>>
>> 2009/4/2 Martin Walker <[log in to unmask]>
>>
>> I challenge this "ageist" thing, Judy (if you're not joking) - if a
>>> retired
>>> person can't indulge in a little self-mockery (as I understand Andrew to
>>> have been doing) then PC Orwell rules OK. So 65+s "fiddle and fart" - I
>>> know
>>> I do. It's an observation, that's all. I've got plenty of ageist
>>> observations about young urban folks, specially girls, who are often
>>> incredibly rude on the street nowadays: like, nobody else exists. But
>>> hey,
>>> they're not all like that.
>>> mj
>>> _______________________________________
>>> But I am but a nameless sort of person
>>> (A broken Dandy lately on my travels)
>>> And take for rhyme, to hook my rambling verse on,
>>> The first that Walker's Lexicon unravels
>>>
>>> - George Gordon, Lord Byron
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Judy Prince" <
>>> [log in to unmask]>
>>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>> Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 4:42 PM
>>> Subject: Re: Blake poem
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I challenge your tone [yes I know you're being humourous] about retired
>>>
>>>> folk, 'Droo; it's ageist and makes me [can't speak for others] feel
>>>> negative
>>>> about retired folk. I hope we can be positive about folks who we don't
>>>> feel
>>>> are young. Our cultures [yours and mine] have a low opinion of old
>>>> folks.
>>>> It's a damaging stereotype and one of the most persistent, if we buy
>>>> into
>>>> it or accept it. Thanks for considering the issue.
>>>> Now to your poem. I like it much much better! It's smooth, still very
>>>> visual, and now makes clearer the narrative whole [start, middle,
>>>> finish],
>>>> so that the 'feel' and fact of your theme and point stay sharp.
>>>>
>>>> Natch, tho, I always 'cut' redundancies and distracting excursions, so
>>>> I've
>>>> removed them, below. My opinion only, acourse! Figured you'd like that
>>>> ;-)
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Judy
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 2009/4/2 andrew burke <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>
>>>> What do retired people who write poetry do but fiddle and fart around
>>>>
>>>>> with
>>>>> their own words. Here is the latest and perhaps last version of that
>>>>> lumpy
>>>>> text I threw at you earlier this week. Thanks to Judy, Patrick, Doug,
>>>>> Frederick and anyone else who addressed the mess for me. Off list,
>>>>> Andrew
>>>>> Taylor also helped steer me right.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Poetical Works (title)
>>>>>
>>>>> Forty six years on
>>>>> and still I warm my hands
>>>>> over it. It opens me out like
>>>>> a choir singing rounds
>>>>> in eighteenth century London.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I take it down from the shelf to
>>>>> remember her, sophisticated lady
>>>>> in a Sydney harbourside mansion who
>>>>> placed Blake's poems in my hands
>>>>> patted their flimsy skin, aged veinless patina.
>>>>> 'We know you'll enjoy this, boy.'
>>>>>
>>>>> I went down my own back roads
>>>>> through cities and fields,
>>>>> an awkward pelican landing
>>>>> on this seat this morning
>>>>> remembering my bottle-scarred muse alive
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> with Blake's pulse in the skein of days.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----------------------------------[altered by jp]
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Thanks all.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Andrew
>>>>> http://hispirits.blogspot.com/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
