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Well, I don't buy into this argument at all, Judy. "-isms" "negative stereotypes" - falaffel. Making observations about behaviour or a process (of aging, for instance) has nothing to do with -isms or stereotypes. I do not define/defile someone by making observations unless I reduce them to simplified or allegorized forms of such observations. Do you think Andrew was reducing himself? If I say "some young people have lousy street manners & hog the sidewalk" you think I don't know about all the qualifying circumstances? What is this? I personally feel awful about getting older because my concentration & my physical tone is going - I may not joke about it to help myself gain some distance through laughter because the class of senior citizens is thereby defamed? Goodbye Shakespeare, goodbye Sterne, goodbye Da Ponte/Mozart (who made the most awfully demeaning toilet jokes in his letters, simply brought shame & scandal to the noble realm of musical composition), goodbye Fawlty Towers, Bill Hicks, shut up Joyce...where are we going? cheers Martin _______________________________________ But I am but a nameless sort of person (A broken Dandy lately on my travels) And take for rhyme, to hook my rambling verse on, The first that Walker's Lexicon unravels - George Gordon, Lord Byron ----- Original Message ----- From: "Judy Prince" <[log in to unmask]> To: <[log in to unmask]> Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 12:43 AM Subject: Re: Blake poem >I wasn't joking, Martin, and I knew Andrew was being humourous. Folks >apply > PC differently and variously, but I wanted Andrew and others to consider > the > issue. I've certainly said ageist things about myself as do many over-50 > folks I know. Usually I've made the remark automatically as a brief, > self-deprecating intro. No matter what the reason and circumstances may > be, > though, ageist comments are negative stereotypes. I'm trying to stop > 'buying into' it, which is taking some work, but I think it's worth it. > Best, > > Judy > > > > 2009/4/2 Martin Walker <[log in to unmask]> > >> I challenge this "ageist" thing, Judy (if you're not joking) - if a >> retired >> person can't indulge in a little self-mockery (as I understand Andrew to >> have been doing) then PC Orwell rules OK. So 65+s "fiddle and fart" - I >> know >> I do. It's an observation, that's all. I've got plenty of ageist >> observations about young urban folks, specially girls, who are often >> incredibly rude on the street nowadays: like, nobody else exists. But >> hey, >> they're not all like that. >> mj >> _______________________________________ >> But I am but a nameless sort of person >> (A broken Dandy lately on my travels) >> And take for rhyme, to hook my rambling verse on, >> The first that Walker's Lexicon unravels >> >> - George Gordon, Lord Byron >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Judy Prince" < >> [log in to unmask]> >> To: <[log in to unmask]> >> Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 4:42 PM >> Subject: Re: Blake poem >> >> >> >> I challenge your tone [yes I know you're being humourous] about retired >>> folk, 'Droo; it's ageist and makes me [can't speak for others] feel >>> negative >>> about retired folk. I hope we can be positive about folks who we don't >>> feel >>> are young. Our cultures [yours and mine] have a low opinion of old >>> folks. >>> It's a damaging stereotype and one of the most persistent, if we buy >>> into >>> it or accept it. Thanks for considering the issue. >>> Now to your poem. I like it much much better! It's smooth, still very >>> visual, and now makes clearer the narrative whole [start, middle, >>> finish], >>> so that the 'feel' and fact of your theme and point stay sharp. >>> >>> Natch, tho, I always 'cut' redundancies and distracting excursions, so >>> I've >>> removed them, below. My opinion only, acourse! Figured you'd like that >>> ;-) >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Judy >>> >>> >>> 2009/4/2 andrew burke <[log in to unmask]> >>> >>> What do retired people who write poetry do but fiddle and fart around >>>> with >>>> their own words. Here is the latest and perhaps last version of that >>>> lumpy >>>> text I threw at you earlier this week. Thanks to Judy, Patrick, Doug, >>>> Frederick and anyone else who addressed the mess for me. Off list, >>>> Andrew >>>> Taylor also helped steer me right. >>>> >>>> The Poetical Works (title) >>>> >>>> Forty six years on >>>> and still I warm my hands >>>> over it. It opens me out like >>>> a choir singing rounds >>>> in eighteenth century London. >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> I take it down from the shelf to >>>> remember her, sophisticated lady >>>> in a Sydney harbourside mansion who >>>> placed Blake's poems in my hands >>>> patted their flimsy skin, aged veinless patina. >>>> 'We know you'll enjoy this, boy.' >>>> >>>> I went down my own back roads >>>> through cities and fields, >>>> an awkward pelican landing >>>> on this seat this morning >>>> remembering my bottle-scarred muse alive >>>> >>> >>> with Blake's pulse in the skein of days. >>> >>> >>> ----------------------------------[altered by jp] >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> Thanks all. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Andrew >>>> http://hispirits.blogspot.com/ >>>> >>>>