Then let us put the word covert in and expand the scenario a little. There is a good indication from enquiries made and information recieved that chris brogan is fly tipping on a regular basis, or doesnt live where he has told the school he does live, or has a dog that looks like one that has been seen on a regular basis fouling the streets. The public authority has completed their enquiries along the lines promoted by a Privacy Impact Assessment. In their opinion the only course of action is to now put the suspect under surveillance. To tell him that he will be put under surveillance is likely to defeat the object of the surveillance. Why cant they just rely on DPA?
Human Rights article 8 right to a respect for privacy is probably satisfied. The lawful basis is provided by DPA. It is reasonable because all other means have been exhausted and they have to do something because; there are parents who do live in the school catchment area and didnt get their kid into the school; the landowner is threatening to sue the authority if they dont do something about the fly tipping on his property; parents are screaming murder if the council dont do something about the dog mess in the park. It is proportionate because as soon as the objective is achieved the surveillance will cease.
 
My question is why use RIPA? Even if the measures proposed by the Home Secretary with regard to the use of RIPA are introduced surely a public authority could still put person(s) under surveillance relying on DPA?
 
Just as an aside. Fly tipping is often highly organised and involves gangs. That falls within the definityion of organised crime. These people are making money from their illegal activity and I assume some of that money finds its way into a bank account. That is money laundering. Both these offences are considered to be serious crimes (Serious Crimes Act 2007..from memory) which is one of the reasons that RIPA was introduced. All that before we even begin to discuss proceeds of crime act.
 
Just a thought.
 
Chris Brogan MA LLM
Managing Director
Security International Ltd
130 St Johns Road, Isleworth, Middlesex TW7 6PL, UK
Tel:  +44 20 8847 2111  Fax:  +44 20 8847 1852
Registered in England & Wales No. 1322074
Registered Office:  11 Loveday Road, London W13 9JT
www.securitysi.com

From: This list is for those interested in Data Protection issues on behalf of Ben Plouviez
Sent: Tue 4/21/2009 2:16 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Council RIPA powers

Well - with slight trepidation - I think I think you are... But it's
certainly an interesting discussion!

What RIPA allows is *covert* surveillance, and that's the word I think
is missing from your argument. Putting up hidden cameras (etc) requires,
I suggest, a level of justification higher than simply "we've got to
catch the bad guys": a driver chucking 2 empty wine bottles out of his
car window in a layby is not, in the public's mind, sufficient of a "bad
guy" to justify the intrusion. Why not put a camera openly there, and
then prosecute him if he's stupid enough to do it anyway? Or, to put it
another way, I would suggest that someone has to be more than a nuisance
- even a determined and persistent nuisance - before people started
feeling comfortable about these methods.

I think it's quite healthy that we still have public unease about using
covert methods without very strong justification. I don't, by the way,
disagree that DPA probably supports the argument you propose: but I
would suggest that ECHR art.8 might raise a bit of a question of how
much "respect" for private life we are displaying if we're willing to
let public bodies use covert surveillance merely to clear up a
misdemeanour or two.

Regards

Ben

-----Original Message-----
From: This list is for those interested in Data Protection issues
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Chris Brogan
Sent: 21 April 2009 12:35
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [data-protection] Council RIPA powers

I wonder if I am missing something here.

Littering is anti social and unacceptable. A council has a duty to keep
its streets clean. If a person(s)are suspected of littering then it
seems to me that the council are entitled to find out who and ask/tell
them to stop it or else. The ensuing investigation is likely to be
processing personal data. The justification for this processing I
suggest could be conditions 3, 5 and 6 of Schedule 2. Bearing in mind
they only need to satisfy one. If they complete their Privacy Impact
Assessment and they have exhausted less intrusive means of finding out
"who done it" then in the absence of any other investigative solution
then why can't they maintain a surveillance on the areas in question?
Once the relevant information is established the method of surveillance
should cease. All this is within the DPA and I cant see how RIPA is
involved.

Now...am I missing something??

Chris Brogan MA LLM
Managing Director
Security International Ltd
130 St Johns Road, Isleworth, Middlesex TW7 6PL, UK
Tel:  +44 20 8847 2111  Fax:  +44 20 8847 1852 Registered in England &
Wales No. 1322074 Registered Office:  11 Loveday Road, London W13 9JT
www.securitysi.com -----Original Message-----
From: This list is for those interested in Data Protection issues
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Ibrahim Hasan
Sent: 17 April 2009 14:01
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Council RIPA powers

Councils in England and Wales face new restrictions on the use of
surveillance powers for minor offences such as dog fouling and
littering.

The Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act (Ripa) allows public
authorities to intercept phone and e-mail data and use CCTV to spy on
suspected criminals.

But Home Secretary Jacqui Smith has launched a review after fears it was
being used for "trivial" offences.

The Tories and Lib Dems say Ripa has become a "snooper's charter".

But the government has resisted opposition calls for the use of the
powers to be authorised by magistrates, arguing that the decision to use
them should be left with councils and police. Full story below:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8003123.stm

I will be looking at these proposals in my RIPA and covert surveillance
workshop next week in London:

http://www.actnow.org.uk/courses/240

Regards

Ibrahim Hasan

Solicitor and Trainer
www.actnow.org.uk

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