Wins what? So it has lots of green paint ...

>London's scale makes it a questionable comparison as there is such a big difference between city cycling and suburban/local area cycling. 

Which is why my article discussed Hackney in particular, and not London in general

>Edinburgh cycle provision is often tokenisitic, even stupid to the practiced cyclist, but its presence is felt and seems to be effective at lower levels. Edinburgh has managed to create a serious commuter/transport cycling presence. 

As has much of inner London, and Hackney in particular with a 10% modal choice, but has achieved this without the usual methods of using piecemeal infrastructure.

>Compare this to its neighbour which has far less visible cycle provision, far fewer visible cyclists and a ghastly car culture, to the extent that as a practiced cyclist considering riding in Glasgow, I prefer to dump the bicycle and use public transport instead. This does not mean that I do not agree that freeing up infrastructure to assist direct-route cycling is not good, If Edinburgh did this as well as the high visibility streetmarking it would be better still.
>
> Nicholas Oddy.
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: Cycling and Society Research Group discussion list on behalf of Dave du Feu
> Sent: Sat 21/03/2009 01:18
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: cycling in Hackney[Scanned-Clean]
>
>
>
> Re. push factors - in Edinburgh a significant one (based on a fairly
> unrepresentative survey) is probably the difficulty of parking a car
> at your place of employment.
>
> Again, perhaps this is different to central London where I imagine
> most people don't even consider parking a car at work as an option, so
> may be an unconscious push-factor in London - whereas in Edinburgh
> it's probably a more conscious one as more of the workforce can
> probably get a workplace or onstreet parking place if they try hard
> enough and long enough.
>
> Re. Trevor's point ('God save us' if UK modal share is well below 4%)
> - commuting cycling modal share in Scotland is 1.6%, and I think 2%
> for UK. Edinburgh has risen from under the Scottish average to around
> 4% at a time when the national figures were static or falling.
>
> Re. Gary's point - I don't think the Edinburgh model has been
> 'fashionable throughout the UK' in the last couple of decades, as you
> suggest. What Edinburgh has done is provide WIDESPREAD coloured
> cycle facilities - most notably, ASLs at almost EVERY light-controlled
> junction, and the bulk of these have now been in place for quite a few
> years. The point which I seem unable to get across is that I am not
> in any way thinking of the effect of any given cycle facility on any
> given cyclist; I am talking about the impact on the consciousness of
> the entire road-using population of seeing every day every where that
> cyclists are expected on the roads, so cycling seems
> normal/accceptable (and the widespread coloured facilities also mean
> it is perceived as safer). People in their workplaces now talk about
> cycling as something one might consider doing, not just for
> enthusiasts. It is of course likely that once there is a sufficient
> critical mass of cyclists, that in itself becomes a major promotional
> factor making cycling feel acceptable and normal. But how do you
> achieve that acceptance when bike use is around 1% or 2%? - we feel
> Edinburgh has provided one answer. Incidentally, of course it would
> be much nicer if things were less fragmented and/or more Euro-style
> but, as Gary says, that is hard to achieve in most existing urban
> areas - and please note that it is not that relevant to my argument!
>
> Dave
>
> 2009/3/20 gary cummins <[log in to unmask]>:
>>
>> Alex said:
>> My hunch is that poor PT
>>> accessibility relative to other areas within the London is one key factor.
>>
>> Poor PT in terms of underground, but good PT in terms of buses and
>> overground, and PT in London has been rammed for years but nevertheless is
>> what is used. I quizzed Trevor Parsons, Borough Co-ordinator of the Hackney
>> Group about the data. I interviewed him for my MSc paper on the London Cycle
>> Network as well as his opposite number in the council responsoble for cycle
>> infrastructure (or the lack of it in Hackney). The avoidance of piecemeal
>> infrastructure, and the concentration on amendment of corner radii and modal
>> filtering is what the local officers, and campaigner who led this agenda
>> belive has worked.
>>
>> There has been some gentrification in Hackney, but it is localised where the
>> city meets the borough, and other boroughs like Camden have been
>> dramatically changed in the past 20 years much more so than Hackney, which
>> escaped gentrification until the last 8-10 years.
>>
>> Alex below makes the point that we cyclists in London have known for years
>> about packed public trasnport, but rammed public transport is not new in
>> London. Fortunately the Hackney model of avoiding piecemeal infrastructure,
>> (which Dave de Feu is convinced works, and is the fashionable model
>> throughout the UK) seems to be permeating to other boroughs in London, it
>> will be interesting to see what happens. Of course, Scandinavian type
>> infrastructure, the the behavioural changes that go with will deliver
>> greater levels of cycling, but we'd have to do some serious demotion of
>> street frontages to deliver this within the urban environment.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> GC
>>
>> Trevor Parsons supplied the following data to me:
>>
>> Hi Gary
>>
>> The census is the strongest data we have for cycling levels in the past.
>>
>> 1981: 2.56%
>> 1991: 4.03%
>> 2001: 6.83%
>>
>> And certainly a large rise since then.
>>
>> In reference the Dave's Edinburgh figure: Is 4% well above what is normal in
>> Britain. God save us, maybe it is!
>>
>> As quoted here:
>> http://www.hackney-cyclists.org.uk/hackney_tops_cycling_growth.htm
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Trevor
>>
>>
>>> Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 15:10:27 +0000
>>> From: [log in to unmask]
>>> Subject: Re: cycling in Hackney
>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>
>>> Dear C&S Research Group
>>>
>>> Alex makes a very good point. It would be remiss to think that the
>>> increase in cycling had come about as a result of pull factors alone. Does
>>> anybody have any data on the accessibility characteristics of areas in
>>> Hackney with high cycling growth compared to other similar areas
>>> within/outside the borough with no/low growth? My hunch is that poor PT
>>> accessibility relative to other areas within the London is one key factor.
>>>
>>> Furthermore, a social-cultural analysis behind the reasons for increase in
>>> cycle growth is required. What have been the demographic changes in the
>>> area (and nature of housing) over the years and has that had an impact on
>>> levels of cycling? I am reluctant to use the 'G' word.
>>>
>>> Interesting study for a budding researcher to follow-up!
>>>
>>> Tim
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hi folks
>>>>
>>>> Couldn't resist adding my tuppence to the "why is cycling in Hackney so
>>>> popular" debate, purely because I'm a daily cyclist from Hackney to
>>>> central London, and have been for years.
>>>>
>>>> Funnily enough the biggest issue for me was actually the fact that
>>>> public transport is pushed to the limit: There is no direct tube
>>>> service; the Overground is so busy you can't physically get on in the
>>>> morning and the buses are heaving and take forever. So cycling is
>>>> genuinely quicker, even if you actually stop at the red lights (which of
>>>> course I always do).
>>>>
>>>> I just mention this because I didn't see recognition of these "push"
>>>> factors, only a discussion of "pull" factors (e.g. are cycle lanes good
>>>> or bad).
>>>>
>>>> For what its worth, I do think the "pull" factors, e.g. traffic calming
>>>> measures, and allowing cyclists through roads closed to cars, and other
>>>> measures the Council have brought in have been fantastic in Hackney - I
>>>> can go most of the way seeing hardly any traffic at all.
>>>>
>>>> Just one other observation - the Council have painted giant cycle logos
>>>> on roads designated as Cycle Routes - not quite as obvious as
>>>> Edinburgh's coloured lanes, but it does tell drivers that they should
>>>> expect to see cycles, and is a bit of sneaky promotion too.
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>>
>>>> Alex Veitch
>>>> Integrated Transport Manager
>>>> ATOC
>>>> 020 7841 8052
>>>> 07825 376 130