hi bob
my expectations for the skills of journalists are fairly modest. these were
often health writers writing about the prostate story. i expect them to be
able to understand academic papers on the common issue of screening - not
physics - and if they don't then to spend 5 minutes calling someone who
does. again, tell me what is incomprehensible about the abstract here:
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/NEJMoa0810084
the first thing i do, if someone tells me there is an article this week in
NEJM, is go to NEJM. here you can see both papers. both published online,
free open access, before the media coverage.
http://www.badscience.net/wp-content/uploads/image62.png
the first thing i do, if someone tells me there is a new trial that gives
new results that conflict with old results, is do a very quick pubmed search
for the other trials, the evidence context.
it's not difficult and it's not too much to ask.
basically you seem to be saying that journalists are busy and simply rewrite
press releases. i think that's a huge problem, i also dont think it saves a
lot of time, but more importantly, if that is what journalists do, then they
should simply be transparent and honest about it, they should say "xx
happened today, according to a press release from yy" not "xx happened
today, according to a paper in the NEJM". furthermore they should link to
the press releases as the primary sources, so that everyone can see what
they do and how they work and where this information comes from. in fact,
hell, the people who read newspapers might as well just read the press
releases instead, for all the value that is added.
*regarding the dreary flamewar:
*
you say i harangue science and health journalists. since you refer
repeatedly to my body of work i am surprised that you seem once again to be
so unfamiliar with its contents. i repeatedly and specifically flag up the
fact that specialist health and science journalists do excellent work and
the problems often arise when things are put in the hands of the
generalists. here are some longer examples, but it's a point i have made
repeatedly and for many years:
http://www.badscience.net/2005/09/dont-dumb-me-down/
http://www.badscience.net/2006/10/newtons-apple-thinktank-launch/
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bad-Science-Ben-Goldacre/dp/0007240198/?tag=bs0b-21
Your claims about your position on the Tele article are silly and I think it
would be wise to leave them. I said that the Telegraph had invented a claim
that greenhouses gases could cause an ice age (and then, incidentally, they
refused to take a correction, a letter, or even an online comment from the
scientist concerned). You said I was wrong to blame the Telegraph beacuse
the Telegraph simply repeated this error from the press release. But this
error did not occur in the press release. Fin.
regarding positive advice for writers: i've done talks to newspapers, helped
on courses, taught on the imperial MSc (once, they didn't ask me back), i
repeatedly make pleas for writers to use "natural frequencies" and "numbers
needed to treat" instead of relative risk increases, etc.
there is nothing more dreary than people who say "fine you campaign on this,
why don't you also campaign on what i want you to campaign on".
go and campaign on what you think needs to be done to improve journalism.
do it.
i would love you to do it. it would be great.
we agree on a lot.
do it. *
*
*> Welcome to the debate Ben and I'm glad you are willing to discuss these
issues publicly.
*
i write a blog, i engage in comments all over the internet, i discuss things
on twitter, i respond to things in print, i've done about a dozen podcasts
no matter how obscure with everyone who's asked in the past month, my email
address which goes directly to me at home is at the bottom of every column,
i work extremely hard to be as accessible as possible because i think these
issues are incredibly important and i am pleased to see that many others
feel the same way.
in all honesty, in contrast, while i value it, and read it from time to
time, and enjoy it greatly, and respect many of the people on it, i regard
your psci-comm discussion list as positively secluded and private.
--
dr ben goldacre
[log in to unmask]
http://www.badscience.net/
READ CAREFULLY. By reading this email, you agree, on behalf of your
employer, to release me from all obligations and waivers arising from
any and all NON-NEGOTIATED agreements, licenses, terms-of-service,
shrinkwrap, clickwrap, browsewrap, confidentiality, non-disclosure,
non-compete and acceptable use policies ("BOGUS AGREEMENTS") that I have
entered into with your employer, its partners, licensors, agents and
assigns, in perpetuity, without prejudice to my ongoing rights and
privileges. You further represent that you have the authority to release
me from any BOGUS AGREEMENTS on behalf of your employer. If you
are anything other than a friend or an institutional professional colleague
and
you are writing to me about Bad Science stuff then it is reasonable to
assume
that I might quote our discussion in my writing, usually anonymously.
On Sun, Mar 22, 2009 at 12:29 PM, Bob Ward <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Welcome to the debate Ben and I'm glad you are willing to discuss these
> issues publicly.
>
> Let's deal with the previous Telegraph article. You are correct, as I
> acknowledged at the time, that the Telegraph article misrepresented the
> content of a press release that was distributed to publicise the publication
> of an article in the journal 'Science' about 'Snowball Earth'. But you will
> recall that the press release made the connection between the research and
> today's climate change, not the journal paper itself. My complaint was that
> the press release was wrong to link the two as the research clearly did not
> have anything but a tenuous link to current climate change, which is why the
> journal paper did not mention it. The link was put into the press release to
> try to generate media coverage (which it did). You have fixated on the
> Telegraph's misrepresentation of the link as it was described in the press
> release, I'm complaining that the press release was wrong to introduce the
> link in the first place.
>
> Your other comments about the current controversy surrounding the papers in
> the NEJM seem based on a romanticised notion of how much time and how many
> resources daily news journalists have. Journal papers tend to be very
> technical and laden with jargon. You find it easy to read many of the
> articles in the medical journals because of your training, but most science
> and health journalists haven't got your training - they are journalists not
> 'doctors with a column hobby' like you. If you had to write about journal
> papers from other disciplines, say particle physics, I'm pretty sure it
> would take a bit of time for you to grasp the main issues and to explain the
> broader significance, say for public policy (something that most journal
> articles do not deal with). That is part of the reason why researchers and
> their host institutions produce press releases, to help journalists more
> easily grasp the salient details of a technical journal article.
> Unfortunately, those releases are not always written with great objectivity
> and tend not to point out any flaws in the research.
>
> More generally, Ben, I don't think your constant running down of health and
> science journalist is particularly helpful. Sure there are many problems,
> and it's good that you expose them. But why not start proposing solutions as
> well? It's no use wishing that daily news journalists were experts in every
> discipline and able to instantly grasp the strenghts and weaknesses of all
> journal articles. Why not start identifying ways in which journalists' jobs
> might be made easier to do well, for instance by raising the quality and
> standards of media releases produced by universities?
>
> And lest I give the wrong impression, I think you are doing a good job with
> your column. But I also think that UK health and science journalists on the
> whole do a brilliant job as well. When was the last time you highlighted an
> excellent report by a science journalist, and didn't just trash a bad one?
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: psci-com: on public engagement with science on behalf of Ben Goldacre
> Sent: Sat 21/03/2009 15:07
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [PSCI-COM] Ben Goldacre shoots the messenger again
>
>
> ##apologies, my last message was garbled formatting, this shld be clearer
> ###
>
> Hi Bob Ward.
>
> " # I see that Ben Goldacre has yet again aimed at the wrong target in his
> 'Bad Science' column in today's edition of 'The Guardian'"
>
> Oh hang on, but the last time you accused me of this you were simply...
> wrong...
>
>
> http://www.badscience.net/2009/01/the-telegraph-misrepresent-a-scientists-work-on-climate-and-then-refuse-to-correct-it-when-he-writes-to-them/
>
> I said that the telegraph had invented a claim that greenhouses gases could
> cause an ice age. You said the Telegraph simply repeated this error from the
> press release. But this error did not occur in the press release. This was
> therefore such a pointless and baffling discussion that I'm a bit reluctant
> to get involved in another one with you.
>
> # , blaming science and medical journalists for poor coverage of a journal
> paper published this week on the success or otherwise of screening tests for
> prostate cancer. He also called out the coverage by 'The Guardian' on his
> website, but the newspaper's subs clearly couldn't stomach the criticism of
> his paymasters and edited it out before publication (assuming that Ben
> didn't censor it himself).
>
> They took it out, fair enough, up to them, it was a bit long I suppose.
>
> # But the point is that all the problems about which he complains seem to
> have arisen from the media release that was distributed by the European
> Association of Urology and posted on AlphaGalileo, rather than from sloppy
> reading of the source, a paper published in the 18 March issue of 'The New
> England Journal of Medicine'.
>
> So the story came from one press release? Journalists are just parrot
> mouthpieces? Then they should link to the press releases, and tell us that.
> There were lots of press releases on that subject, though, including many
> sensible ones (and even some fairly accurate coverage from news agencies, I
> haven't checked the timing but I think lots were available before UK papers
> went to press).
>
> # He also complains that UK journalists "deliberately ignored" another
> paper by US authors in the same issue of the journal. I rather suspect that
> the paper was simply missed because it was not promoted through a media
> release to UK journalists.
>
> When you write an entire piece about one study it seems very reasonable to
> look at the evidence context with a quick pubmed search, or a scan of the
> most up to date systematic review. This wld take a few minutes. People do it
> millions of times a day. This is not technical and difficult. It is a very
> basic skill.
>
> # The fact is that journalists working to daily newspaper deadlines have to
> rely on media releases rather than on wading through technical journals.
>
> There is nothing very technical about the papers in the NEJM, these
> articles were free to access and their abstracts actually expressed the
> risks as "numbers needed to screen" and used natural frequencies, which have
> been repeatedly shown to be a more comprehensible way of expressing risk
> than the rather unhelpful "20% less" figures used by UK journalists. They
> were also eminently readable.
>
> Here is one.
>
> http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/NEJMoa0810084
>
> Here is the other:
>
> http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/NEJMoa0810696
>
> I think they're very clear.
>
> # They have just a few hours to write their articles, not a whole week like
> Ben has for his column.
>
> I think we've discussed this before as well Bob. I don't spend a week
> writing my column, it is a hobby, on top of my day job.
>
> But furthermore, the media coverage on prostate screening came out on
> Thursday, and my column deadline is Friday morning, so I only had a day, as
> it happens I didn't notice the newspapers until Thursday evening. The column
> took from about 8pm til midnight since you ask, I certainly didn't want a
> late night because I knew I was going to be on call all day and then all
> night on Friday.
>
> But my nerdy life is irrelevant. More importantly, the things that
> journalists failed to do simply do not take long. As I said, when you write
> an entire piece about one single study it seems very reasonable to look at
> the evidence context with a quick pubmed search, or a scan of the most up to
> date systematic review. This wld take a few minutes. People do it millions
> of times a day. It is very very normal and very very easy.
>
> # And by making journalists solely culpable for what he considers to be bad
> reporting, he ignores the role of bad media relations by universities and
> scientific organisations, and promotes further ignorance and
> misunderstanding of how the media works.
>
> I have also previously written about both scientists and press releases
> misleading the media. If you have any more good examples of that do please
> send them to me, [log in to unmask], it just goes straight to my
> gmail like all my other email addresses.
>
> -- dr ben goldacre
> [log in to unmask]
> http://www.badscience.net/
>
> READ CAREFULLY. By reading this email, you agree, on behalf of your
> employer, to release me from all obligations and waivers arising from any
> and all NON-NEGOTIATED agreements, licenses, terms-of-service, shrinkwrap,
> clickwrap, browsewrap, confidentiality, non-disclosure, non-compete and
> acceptable use policies ("BOGUS AGREEMENTS") that I have entered into with
> your employer, its partners, licensors, agents and assigns, in perpetuity,
> without prejudice to my ongoing rights and privileges. You further represent
> that you have the authority to release me from any BOGUS AGREEMENTS on
> behalf of your employer. If you are anything other than a friend or an
> institutional professional colleague and you are writing to me about Bad
> Science stuff then it is reasonable to assume that I might quote our
> discussion in my writing, usually anonymously.
> ********************************************************************** 1.
> To suspend yourself from the list, whilst on leave, for example, send an
> email to mailto:[log in to unmask] with the following message:
>
> set psci-com nomail -- [include hyphens]
>
> 2. To resume email from the list, send an email to [log in to unmask] the message:
>
> set psci-com mail -- [include hyphens]
>
> 3. To leave psci-com, send an email to [log in to unmask] with the
> message:
>
> leave psci-com -- [include hyphens]
>
> 4. Further information about the psci-com discussion list, including list
> archive, can be found at the list web site:
> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/psci-com.html
>
> 5. The psci-com gateway to internet resources on science communication and
> science and society can be found at http://psci-com.ac.uk
>
> 6. To contact the Psci-com list owner, please send an email to mailto:
> [log in to unmask]**********************************************************************
>
>
> Please access the attached hyperlink for an important electronic
> communications disclaimer:
> http://www.lse.ac.uk/collections/secretariat/legal/disclaimer.htm
>
> **********************************************************************
> 1. To suspend yourself from the list, whilst on leave, for example,
> send an email to mailto:[log in to unmask] with the following
> message:
>
> set psci-com nomail -- [include hyphens]
>
> 2. To resume email from the list, send an email to [log in to unmask] the message:
>
> set psci-com mail -- [include hyphens]
>
> 3. To leave psci-com, send an email to [log in to unmask] with the
> message:
>
> leave psci-com -- [include hyphens]
>
> 4. Further information about the psci-com discussion list, including list
> archive, can be found at the list web site:
> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/psci-com.html
>
> 5. The psci-com gateway to internet resources on science communication and
> science and society can be found at http://psci-com.ac.uk
>
> 6. To contact the Psci-com list owner, please send an email to mailto:
> [log in to unmask]
> **********************************************************************
>
--
dr ben goldacre
[log in to unmask]
http://www.badscience.net/
READ CAREFULLY. By reading this email, you agree, on behalf of your
employer, to release me from all obligations and waivers arising from
any and all NON-NEGOTIATED agreements, licenses, terms-of-service,
shrinkwrap, clickwrap, browsewrap, confidentiality, non-disclosure,
non-compete and acceptable use policies ("BOGUS AGREEMENTS") that I have
entered into with your employer, its partners, licensors, agents and
assigns, in perpetuity, without prejudice to my ongoing rights and
privileges. You further represent that you have the authority to release
me from any BOGUS AGREEMENTS on behalf of your employer. If you
are anything other than a friend or an institutional professional colleague
and
you are writing to me about Bad Science stuff then it is reasonable to
assume
that I might quote our discussion in my writing, usually anonymously.
**********************************************************************
1. To suspend yourself from the list, whilst on leave, for example,
send an email to mailto:[log in to unmask] with the following message:
set psci-com nomail -- [include hyphens]
2. To resume email from the list, send an email to [log in to unmask] with the message:
set psci-com mail -- [include hyphens]
3. To leave psci-com, send an email to [log in to unmask] with the message:
leave psci-com -- [include hyphens]
4. Further information about the psci-com discussion list, including list archive, can be found at the list web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/psci-com.html
5. The psci-com gateway to internet resources on science communication and science and society can be found at http://psci-com.ac.uk
6. To contact the Psci-com list owner, please send an email to mailto:[log in to unmask]
**********************************************************************
