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Andy: Very thoughtful analysis. However, there is a design approach called "universal design" which is design that creates structures which are more inclusive. Such design while cognizant of those with disabilities also accomodates an aging population. Advocacy is best done in groups...It is time-consuming, but perhaps it is the task of good citizens. Bertie --- On Wed, 2/18/09, A Velarde <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > From: A Velarde <[log in to unmask]> > Subject: Re: Wheelchair Access to Buses > To: [log in to unmask] > Received: Wednesday, February 18, 2009, 10:03 AM > Helen. I was reading the comments and replies. Let me say is > a theoretical > sense that I can't express in practical terms. there > are two issues here: > one is about social structure and the other about agency. > The structure is > that services are standardised because that is how market > economics-population management work. If you require 2 cms > more to manoeuvre > in a service, the structure (and the common sense then) > will request you to > adjust, and reframe your views to be expressed. Modern > societies (the so > called 'west') is populated by this type of > culture. If you fall out of the > standard you are a deviation, hence you are asked to > refrain. Political > apathy can be explained in those lines. Post industrial > societies mange > population by minimising deviations. Increasingly > disenchanted individuals > then decide to quit the system, leave it to the experts, > 'vote with their > feet'. > > The issue then goes to agency. How to have agency when > everything is > standardised? The structure assign you a role: it is up to > you to comply but > if you can't it is up to you to come up with both the > idea (e.g. flip seats > is an example) and show me the money (I.e. the market > demand). If you cannot > find and justify, your plight is entirely political, not > 'technical'. If > that is the case the deviant user is required to do all > sort of time > consuming activities lobbying, activism, etc, etc. > > Best, Andy > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bryant, Helen" > <[log in to unmask]> > To: <[log in to unmask]> > Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 10:44 AM > Subject: Re: Wheelchair Access to Buses > > > I'm very well aware that sense is by no means always > common, any more than > knowledge is general! > > Well maybe I'll try again with the bus company, then. > I know the chap who > trains the drivers on one of the bus companies. > > It's not the seats that are the issue on the buses > where I am - they are > flipped up by default and if someone wants to sit there > they have to put the > seat down. Except for the one on one of the buses, which > refuses to stay > up. > > It's the lack of space to get into the designated area > that's the problem, > and the stanchion for people to hold onto when they are > standing on journeys > which gets in the way - there isn't enough room to > manoeuvre on all the > buses - they are of different designs, and the more > accessible ones aren't > on every route. > > ONE person abusing the system is too many, IMHO. > > Cheers, > > Helen > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bertha Mo [mailto:[log in to unmask]] > Sent: 16 February 2009 16:29 > To: [log in to unmask]; Bryant, Helen > Subject: Re: Wheelchair Access to Buses > > > Thank you detailing your complaint on the list so we can > see what is > happening locally and compare what is happening globally. > > By the way, "Common sense is not always common (to > many)." > > Information, education is always helpful. Ottawa, Canada > has a campaign to > support people living at home. So there has been a hugh > campaign to train > taxi drivers, paratranspo workers and bus drivers on how to > provide services > to people with disabilities. And it is working. In > Ottawa, Canada, the bus > driver often helps lift the row of seats. Sometimes, other > passengers help. > However, the seats are so light and simple to flip up that > the person in the > wheelchair can do it themselves. > > So, I'm wondering if it is also a matter of the > construction of the seats. > > The idea that anyone who presents a pass is rejected is > horrible and should > be reported. To my mind, there are too few people abusing > the system to > incovenience and embarass those who aren't. > > Good luck! > > Bertie > > > > > > --- On Mon, 2/16/09, Bryant, Helen > <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > > From: Bryant, Helen > <[log in to unmask]> > > Subject: Re: Wheelchair Access to Buses > > To: [log in to unmask] > > Received: Monday, February 16, 2009, 3:27 PM > > Yes I agree, but they are often very good where I am. > It > > annoys me that I'm often late because of other > selfish > > individuals who refuse to move. > > > > They don't often refuse to put down a ramp - a lot > of > > the time it goes the other way round and they put it > down > > when it's not necessarily needed. Mind you a > driver > > DIDN'T put it down the other night which resulted > in a > > fall - I wasn't hurt but it was humiliating. So > what do > > you do? I will make a complaint I think, about the > bus stop > > in question if nothing else, it's possible that > the > > driver was going to put it down but somehow > didn't. > > There were people offering to help me, but in the > event they > > failed utterly. People just don't understand how > > wheelchairs work and how to hold them in a place which > > won't result in an accident. They just don't > seem > > to have any common sense any more. I know my handles > are > > not easy to see but why don't they ask instead of > just > > grabbing my wheelchair? > > > > That's a disgraceful situation about blind people > > having their passes refused or confiscated - I hope > that > > complaints had been made to the relevant companies; > it's > > the only thing that will get things changed, sadly. > > > > Sorry to rant, but it does need saying. > > > > Helen > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Allan Sutherland > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] > > Sent: 16 February 2009 14:30 > > To: Bryant, Helen > > Subject: Re: Wheelchair Access to Buses > > > > > > I think a lot of this is an issue of driver training. > > > > The spaces are clearly marked as being wheelchair > spaces. > > They even have a > > notice saying that people with pushchairs can use them > as > > long as they are > > not needed by wheelchair users. But the driver should > be > > enforcing this, > > and my experience is that they don't. > > > > When we carried out research on barriers for the > Disability > > Rights > > Commission, copmplaints about transport were top of > the > > list. A lot of the > > things described were entirely due to driver > behaviour. > > This included > > refusal to put out a ramp, often with dubious claims > that > > it wasn't working. > > > > Because blind people have a travel pass without a > > photograph, a very high > > proportion of the group we interviewed had had their > passes > > refused, even > > though they were entirely valid. One poor woman had > had it > > confiscated by > > the driver - even though her Visa card was in the > holder > > with it. She was > > forced to stay on the bus, and only got things sorted > out > > after calling her > > brother, a solicitor, who called out the police to > stop the > > bus! > > > > Allan Sutherland > > Director > > Edward Lear Foundation > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Bryant, Helen" > > <[log in to unmask]> > > To: <[log in to unmask]> > > Sent: Monday, February 16, 2009 11:27 AM > > Subject: Wheelchair Access to Buses > > > > > > I'm absolutely fuming. > > > > Some people where I live and work are having problems > > getting on to buses, > > all of which are supposed to be accessible; they all > have > > kneeling > > mechanisms. The spaces in which wheelchair users have > to > > manoeuvre are > > found to be too small for some people. > > > > However, on writing to the Department for Transport, > they > > just say that: > > > > "Indications are that the dimensions of the > reference > > wheelchair represent > > approximately 95% of manual wheelchairs and 85% of > powered > > wheelchairs. > > > > ...Many wheelchairs have differing geometry to the > > reference wheelchair > > which may have an effect on users' ability to > board > > buses... > > > > ...In addition I would remind you that dimensions that > are > > stated in PSVAR > > are the minimum that are required in order to comply > ... > > > > ...We do note your concerns in respect of dimensions, > but > > advise that it may > > not be possible to effect changes at this stage." > > > > Typical. "It doesn't work, sorry about that, > but > > you just have to put up > > with it." No wonder we're so angry a lot of > the > > time. > > > > What also rubs salt into the wounds is that mothers > and > > their too-big prams > > often take up the wheelchair spaces on buses, and some > of > > them won't move. > > If it's a shared space then we have to put up with > it > > to a certain extent, > > but this isn't always the case. The other day I > had to > > sit where I wasn't > > really safe, just because someone was in the shared > space. > > > > Disabled people are the ones who, traditionally, > chained > > themselves to buses > > to get access in the first place - where were the > parents? > > > > I've had enough of this country. > > > > > > > > The information in this e-mail is confidential to the > > intended recipient to > > whom it has been addressed and may be covered by legal > > professional > > privilege and protected by law. > > Reading Borough Council does not accept responsibility > for > > any unauthorised > > amendment made to the contents of this e-mail > following its > > dispatch. > > > > Reading Borough Council has scanned for viruses. > However, > > it is your > > responsibility to scan the e-mail and attachments (if > any) > > for viruses. > > > > If received in error, you must not retain the message > or > > disclose its > > contents to anyone. > > Please contact the sender of the email or > > mailto:[log in to unmask] or call > Customer > > Services > > on 0800 626540 or if international (+44) 118 939 0900, > > quoting the name of > > the sender and the addressee and then delete the > e-mail > > > > ________________End of message________________ > > > > This Disability-Research Discussion list is managed by > the > > Centre for > > Disability Studies at the University of Leeds > > (www.leeds.ac.uk/disability-studies). > > Enquiries about list administration should be sent to > > [log in to unmask] > > > > Archives and tools are located at: > > www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/disability-research.html > > You can VIEW, POST, JOIN and LEAVE the list by logging > in > > to this web page. > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > Internal Virus Database is out of date. > > Checked by AVG. > > Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.10.23/1948 - > Release > > Date: 12/02/2009 > > 07:20 > > > > ________________End of message________________ > > > > This Disability-Research Discussion list is managed by > the > > Centre for Disability Studies at the University of > Leeds > > (www.leeds.ac.uk/disability-studies). > > Enquiries about list administration should be sent to > > [log in to unmask] > > > > Archives and tools are located at: > > www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/disability-research.html > > You can VIEW, POST, JOIN and LEAVE the list by logging > in > > to this web page. > > ________________End of message________________ > > This Disability-Research Discussion list is managed by the > Centre for > Disability Studies at the University of Leeds > (www.leeds.ac.uk/disability-studies). > Enquiries about list administration should be sent to > [log in to unmask] > > Archives and tools are located at: > www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/disability-research.html > You can VIEW, POST, JOIN and LEAVE the list by logging in > to this web page. > > ________________End of message________________ > > This Disability-Research Discussion list is managed by the > Centre for > Disability Studies at the University of Leeds > (www.leeds.ac.uk/disability-studies). > Enquiries about list administration should be sent to > [log in to unmask] > > Archives and tools are located at: > www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/disability-research.html > You can VIEW, POST, JOIN and LEAVE the list by logging in > to this web page. > > ________________End of message________________ > > This Disability-Research Discussion list is managed by the > Centre for Disability Studies at the University of Leeds > (www.leeds.ac.uk/disability-studies). > Enquiries about list administration should be sent to > [log in to unmask] > > Archives and tools are located at: > www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/disability-research.html > You can VIEW, POST, JOIN and LEAVE the list by logging in > to this web page. ________________End of message________________ This Disability-Research Discussion list is managed by the Centre for Disability Studies at the University of Leeds (www.leeds.ac.uk/disability-studies). 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