 |
 |
Thanks John. Happy to discuss socialist democracy offline (as a former anarchist)! > With you all the way until the very end, Mark.. the list is precisely > *not* an anarchist organisation, because in actuality it is no > organisation at all. And its precisely that lack of organisation that > has generated our previous enforced apathy, our silence and hence > effective complicity. Anarchists are not against organisation, they're > against unaccountable and hierachical organisations. So ethically > grounded action, yes; sorting ourselves out, yes; but please let's not > confuse the issue. Otherwise I'll have to mention Kronstadt, and then > who knows where that might lead... > J.x > > > Mark Burton wrote: >> Let me try and interpret myself, or elaborate what I was suggesting >> together with some background: >> "There has been some discussion as to whether the wording needed >> altering and also some discussion as to whether we wanted to send out >> the statement. However nobody actually seemed to disassociate >> themselves from it and there was a strong faction that concurred with >> sending it out and also that suggested that in this urgent and quite >> exceptional case debate shouldn't impede action. Now had it looked like >> a sizeable minority were against it I would have been reluctant to send >> out the statement (50% was setting the bar high to try and draw out >> everyone that would object). Nobody said 'don't send it!' - but if they >> did I apologise for missing this. All this was done quickly and there >> is a trade off between decisive action and democratic transparent >> decision making which I do really value but not as an overriding >> principle. Now the deed is done and this decisive action by two list >> members raises again the question for the list as a whole (or the >> embryonic organisation that it may be soon to become?) as to how we >> should organise decision making, leadership, what are the rules for >> speaking on behalf of the network, so that decisive, authoritative >> action can be taken on matters of social and community importance?" >> So yes it is problematic and I have to own some of that, but in the >> final instance the problems are in the context (both the context of the >> list and the context of there being challenging social reality that we >> want to alter. >> >> A further point - the list as it stands is an anarchist organisation - >> it has no leadership but is a loose collective. As Enrique Dussel >> points out - anarchism is an unethical ideology because it suggests an >> approach that is unworkable in any complex society (and I'd add any >> organisation above a small size). If we want ot take ethically grounded >> action then we have to 'sort ourselves out'. >> >> >> >> David Fryer wrote: >>> Dear Mark, >>> >>> I find the following comment, and what it suggests about the position >>> taken up with regard to transparency, accountability, the relationship >>> between means and ends and towards fellow list members on this list >>> very problematic: "If the process was less than transparent and >>> democratic that should spur the list/network/embryonic organisation to >>> sort itself out" >>> >>> David >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List >>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Mark Burton >>> Sent: 21 January 2009 12:25 >>> To: [log in to unmask] >>> Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] petition/ from community psychologists? >>> >>> You are absolutely right. >>> >>> Anyway as there were not the 50% objections by the deadline Paul and I >>> sent the statement out to national press, psychological organisations, >>> relevant NGOs working on mental health and similar in Palestine, some >>> 'radical psychologist' colleagues. Will forward the full list later as >>> I don't have it to hand here. We sent the version with the changed >>> penultimate sentence to make it clear that it is the Israeli State >>> thatis culpable (just as the Cubans always make it clar that they have >>> no argument with the US people - just their imperialist governments). >>> No the Statement wasn't ideal and it would have been good to have a bit >>> more focus on the psychological dimensions of suffering and its >>> creation - but the priority was action - action that is one more drip >>> in the torrent of voices against this ethnocidal campaign. To >>> paraphrase Paulo Freire, Had we remained silent we would have remained >>> complict. >>> >>> If the process was less than transparent and democratic that should >>> spur the list/network/embryonic organisation to sort itself out. >>> >>> >>> >>>> Yes David, >>>> >>>> There are many petitions. The one that you indicate is so that >>>> scientists and academics show their solidarity with the people of >>>> Gaza, and the disapproval of the Israeli Governments actions. >>>> What many people seem to be seeking on this list is a show of >>>> solidarity from our profession. A petition from our profession would >>>> allow those of us who believe that our profession should speak out >>>> collectively as a voice for social change, and to acknowledge that not >>>> all mental health is neurological ,but environmental or social in its >>>> onset, can do so. >>>> It seems that collective announcements from this list, as a voice for >>>> Community Psychologists acknowledging that the actions of a state are >>>> wilfully creating significant psychological problems ( not to mention >>>> that the state is responsible for wholesale deaths, homelessness, >>>> illnesses and injuries which medical practitioners at the site are not >>>> able to administer to, plus ongoing ill health as a direct result of >>>> deprivation of food, clean drinking water and medicines) is difficult. >>>> >>>> Maybe we need to go back to the beginning, and state the terms of the >>>> list. I can get academic debate in all manner of forums. I work with >>>> people who have been tortured, who have witnessed the violent deaths >>>> of their loved ones and strangers, I work with children who have been >>>> tortured, and for whom it takes years to get acknowledgement that they >>>> must be believed. Even amongst the most vulnerable in the indigenous >>>> community of the UK, these people are denied everything - a group like >>>> no other. Some of their suffering comes from the outrageous drive of >>>> our own Government to silence and dismiss them, to deny them all their >>>> human rights. A substantial amount of their suffering comes from what >>>> has happened to them and what they have witnessed. I am not willing to >>>> be silent about what I see and experience here. I am not willing to >>>> navigate a discourse about saying outloud: "I object!" >>>> >>>> As a psychotherapist for social change, as a psychotherapist who has >>>> status and whose voice might count in some small way I am saying "I >>>> see, I hear, and I object," >>>> As the blogger from the International Solidarity Movement said from >>>> Gaza during the bombing, someone who chose to witness, the people need >>>> to know that we object. >>>> Miriam >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 09:53:35 +0000From: [log in to unmask] Dear >>>> Miriam and all >>>> >>>> You asked whether reformulating the draft statement as a petition was >>>> possible. Here is a link to an existing petition you and others might >>>> like to know about if you don't already. >>>> >>>> http://www.petitiononline.com/I75SD92/petition.html >>>> David >>>> >>>> _________________________________________________________________ >>>> Imagine a life without walls. See the possibilities >>>> http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/122465943/direct/01/ >>>> ___________________________________ >>>> COMMUNITYPSYCHUK - The discussion list for community psychology in the >>>> UK. >>>> To unsubscribe or to change your details visit the website: >>>> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?A0=COMMUNITYPSYCHUK >>>> For any problems or queries, contact the list moderators: Rebekah >>>> Pratt >>>> ([log in to unmask]) or Grant Jeffrey ([log in to unmask]) >>>> >>>> >>> >>> ___________________________________ >>> COMMUNITYPSYCHUK - The discussion list for community psychology in the >>> UK. >>> To unsubscribe or to change your details visit the website: >>> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?A0=COMMUNITYPSYCHUK >>> For any problems or queries, contact the list moderators: Rebekah Pratt >>> ([log in to unmask]) or Grant Jeffrey ([log in to unmask]) >>> >>> >> ___________________________________ COMMUNITYPSYCHUK - The discussion >> list for community psychology in the UK. To unsubscribe or to change >> your details visit the website: >> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?A0=COMMUNITYPSYCHUK For any >> problems or queries, contact the list moderators: Rebekah Pratt >> ([log in to unmask]) or Grant Jeffrey ([log in to unmask]) > > -- > ******************************************************** > John Cromby > Department of Human Sciences > Loughborough University > Loughborough, Leics > LE11 3TU England > Tel: 01509 223000 > Email: [log in to unmask] > Personal webpage: http://www-staff.lboro.ac.uk/~hujc4/ > Co-Editor, "Subjectivity": www.palgrave-journals.com/sub > ******************************************************** > > ___________________________________ > COMMUNITYPSYCHUK - The discussion list for community psychology in the UK. > To unsubscribe or to change your details visit the website: > http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?A0=COMMUNITYPSYCHUK > For any problems or queries, contact the list moderators: Rebekah Pratt > ([log in to unmask]) or Grant Jeffrey ([log in to unmask]) > ___________________________________ COMMUNITYPSYCHUK - The discussion list for community psychology in the UK. To unsubscribe or to change your details visit the website: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?A0=COMMUNITYPSYCHUK For any problems or queries, contact the list moderators: Rebekah Pratt ([log in to unmask]) or Grant Jeffrey ([log in to unmask])