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Folktales, fairytales and nursery rhymes are not exclusively the property of children, but they often survive because parents know that children love them. The folklorist Alan Dundes' "Cinderella: A Casebook" is a classic--a compendium of versions of the story from around the world and interpretations. Especially wonderful is an unintentionally hysterical essay by a psychoanalyst interpreting a moment of cheekiness of his preadolescent daughter's in terms of a psychodynamic analysis of the story. One pities the little girl, but more the father, who can't quite make it through the fog of his own creation. And there's an account of the telling of the story in a farmhouse in a remote corner of Italy, which should answer any questions about how stories manage to remain intact for centuries. Mark At 11:04 PM 12/26/2008, you wrote: >The Opie's study remains a central reference point: as Mark says , >kids pass on to kids, not adults to kids, so you have this sub-world >of the little, all of which we big ones were once part of, but only >imperfectly remember. > >Best > >Dave > >2008/12/26 Mark Weiss <[log in to unmask]>: > > They also recite, and have recited to them, rhymes half a millenium old > > (think of Jack and Jill--it's a long time since urban children have had to > > fetch pails of water). Very little if any of this seems to be internalized > > as prescriptions for adult behavior, as witness the quite casual > increase in > > born out of wedlock children in all social classes and educational levels. > > Some of those kids are chanting Ken's rhyme, with no selfconsciousness. > > > > When Carlos was about eight his mother and I worried that he might be > > blindsided by some gossip, so we decided to tell him that she and > his father > > had not married until Carlos was 2. This had no impact on him whatsoever. > > Why should it? His mother and I, like half his friends' parents, > were living > > "in sin." The parents of most of the rest were married to a non-parent. > > > > Childlore is passed on from child to slightly younger child. It survives > > because it binds the group, it's fun to recite or sing, and it's a handy > > marker for rhythmic games, like jump rope. > > > > Mark > > > > At 12:28 PM 12/26/2008, you wrote: > >> > >> What's odd is the idea that kids might still be chanting rhymes that > >> assert such '50s 'values' as love/marriage/baby carriage in immutable > >> order. At what point do they realize that the world around them > >> doesn't match? > >> > >> Susan H. > >> > >> On Dec 26, 2008, at 9:18 AM, Kenneth Wolman wrote: > >> > >>> Janet Jackson wrote: > >>>> > >>>> My kids (12 and 10) andn their school friends still chant rhymes. > >>>> Some the > >>>> same as I remember from the 70s: > >>>> > >>>> [snip] > >>>> X and Y, sitting in a tree / K.I.S.S.I.N.G. > >>> > >>> I thought this was a confined-to-America thing. The one I heard has > >>> a second line with some interesting social assumptions: > >>> > >>> First comes love, then comes marriage > >>> Then comes X with a baby carriage. > >>> > >>> I don't even want to get into the social-sounding stuff here, you > >>> can do it for yourself. > >>> > >>> Ken, from Washougal, Washington > > > > > >-- >David Bircumshaw >Website and A Chide's Alphabet http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/ >The Animal Subsides http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html >Leicester Poetry Society: http://www.poetryleicester.co.uk