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Thank you Larry, for thoughtful words I EXPECT AND LOOK FORWARD to reading your emails in the new year and for a lot longer after that dan ______________________________ Dan Goodley Professor of Psychology and Disability Studies Manchester Metropolitan University RIHSC Psychology and Social Change Gaskell Campus Manchester, M13 0JA Tel: (+44) 0161 247 2526 Fax: (+44) 0161 247 6842 E-mail: [log in to unmask] http://www.rihsc.mmu.ac.uk/ ** NEW ESRC FUNDED PROJECT "Does every child matter, post Blair? The interconnections of disabled childhoods" http://www.rihsc.mmu.ac.uk/postblairproject/ ** NEW BRITISH COUNCIL/PMI2 FUNDED PROJECT http://www.rihsc.mmu.ac.uk/malaysiaukdisability/ For details of recently completed research projects and related research activities, please visit: http://www.shef.ac.uk/disabledbabies/ http://www.shef.ac.uk/jobsnotcharity/ Before acting on this email or opening any attachments you should read the Manchester Metropolitan University's email disclaimer available on its website http://www.mmu.ac.uk/emaildisclaimer >>> Larry Arnold <[log in to unmask]> 12/10/08 9:33 PM >>> WE ARE ALL DEPENDANT, yep especially the Royal Family. As John Donne said, "no man is an island" As for me I am just a peninsula it seems. I'd be hypocritical if I disavowed suicide as an option having eventually chosen not too commit suicide this Christmas (although I was seriously thinking about it), because although it would be a damned fine and poetic gesture (Thomas Chatterton and all that) I know it would inconvenience for too many other people, not least the hire company I will be hiring a car from. So if I don't appear in the new year, assume natural causes or an accident. Although we should all have autonomy and choice, don't impose your death wish on anyone else, that is the crime of it. To me suicide should be a choice one can make because one has had enough of the tribulations of this world, but dependency is not to my mind one of them. I am dependent on the railways for goodness sake, but just cos a train is late, tis no reason to throw myself on the tracks, in fact the reason I don't do that is because people who do annoy me, cos they hold the trains up. Life has it's highs and lows, my mum spent her last years in severe dependency and pain, but in her dependancy she was still autonomous, and autonomy is the thing, not independence, which no one but Robinson Crusoe ever achieved. (and then he had the ships salvage to depend upon) If you are so perverse that you want to end it, do it now while you still can or so help me I'll come round and sort you out before you have even decided :) There is no dignity after all, dignity in whose eyes, as God said to Adam "who told thee thou wast naked?" Don't be fooled by the illusory dignity of public approbation or disaprobation. That is the worry that one can become a victim to someone elses concepts of dignity not ones own. Where was our dignity before we knew it existed, when we were born into this world "mewling and puking" as dependent as you could ever be. Larry > -----Original Message----- > From: The Disability-Research Discussion List > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of > Jeremy Wickins > Sent: 10 December 2008 17:56 > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Assisted suicide > > Sorry, folks, but I have to come clean - I support assisted > suicide for adults (Colin's recent post about children has me > very concerned though). I do not EVER want to live in a way > that leaves me dependent on others for long periods of time, > whether that is due to physical incapacity or something like > dementia, and I want the law to allow someone that I trust to > enable me to be killed if I cannot do it for myself. I am not > on my own in this - there are a lot of us. > That does not make us cowards, uncaring, or barbarous - we > merely have a different concept of dignity from those who > think that life is to fought for until the very end. It is a > matter of choice - I respect the choice of those that want to > keep going until the body gives up, but I expect the same > respect to be given to my choices. Of course, the default > position must be to continue life if there is no indication > that assisted death or refusal of life-saving treatment is > desired by the incapacitated individual, and if there is any > doubt, then independent arbiters are required. > > Where does the fear come from in the disabled community? Is > it from the idea that people with different abilities will be > compulsorily killed? That makes no sense at all - this is not > Nazi Germany. Is it that some people might be persuaded to > die who might not really want to? Well, that is a > possibility, that must be guarded against, but, on the other > side, what about those who will be persuaded to live past the > point that life has become truly hateful due to pain or > indignity by friends or relatives too afraid to face death? > It is time that the "lessons" of a particularly disfunctional > political experiment two-thirds of a century ago were put > into perspective, instead of distorting views long after the > whole thing collapsed. > > The disabled community is based on dignity and choice, so > why, when it comes to deciding that a person wishes to die at > a time and in a way that s/he feels dignified, do so many > people whose views I hold in great esteem get so > paternalistic? By all means, identify where any such law > could go wrong so that safeguards can be put in place, but > please don't try to stop me and people like me having a > choice. Life CAN sometimes be genuinely not worth living. > > > -- > Jeremy Wickins, > PhD Researcher, > School of Law, > University of Sheffield, > Bartolome House, > Sheffield. S3 7ND > UK. > > > Quoting Colin REvell <[log in to unmask]>: > > > Wednesday, December 10, 2008 The Scots: Let's Allow > Assisted Suicide For > > CHILDREN It's coming thick and fast now, folks. Killing > people, that is, > > especially in the UK If you're going to be an overachieving > country, > > it might as well be in the realm of assisted suicide.Dan James. > > Valerie Grosvenor Myer. And tonight's Sky Real Lives > channel airing > > of the filmed assisted suicide of Craig Ewert.Remember, in > all these > > cases, part of the pro-killing argument was that it wasn't > the act of > > assisted suicide that was bad; it was those pesky laws in > the UK that > > prevented it. So, aided and abetted by the largely > uncritical media, > > the clarion call came from the seat of the former > > Empire: We need to change the law.Not wanting to be seen as > retrograde > > neanderthals to their English cousins, the Scots have stepped in to > > take the lead. Scotland's The Herald reports today that a > Scottish MP, > > Margo MacDonald, is planning to introduce legislation that would > > legalize assisted suicide for children.No, I'm not kidding. Wish I > > were. Here's MacDonald's > > rationale: In Scotland, when parents divorce, and the > children are 12 > > or older, the court takes into consideration the child's > choice as to > > which parent they wish to live with. Under some circumstances, the > > living choice is offered to younger children. So, goes > MacDonald, why > > not give the same legal status for choices about living or > dying?Get a > > load of the proposed legislation's slimy rationale: The outlined > > proposal would allow patients with degenerative, irreversible > > conditions to approach a doctor who would be specially > registered to > > help terminate life at the patient's request. OK, that's standard > > let's-kill-you-when-you-have-a-bad-disease language.But, listen to > > this: Assisted suicide would also be possible for patients who > > unexpectedly became incapacitated to an "intolerable" > degree, or who > > simply find their life "intolerable" - although the latter > case would > > require the doctor to seek a second opinion from another health > > professional. So, now, if you think any "incapacitation" > you have is a > > drag, or even if you think your life is just yucky, you have a way > > out. Remember, because we don't want to be too hasty, for > this aspect > > of the legislation you'll have to find not one, but two doctors who > > agree you should be done in. (Shouldn't be difficult with a little > > doctor-shopping for medicos who share the pro-killing view of the > > world). And now, potentially, in Scotland, you don't even > have to wait > > until you're legally an adult.Children have rights too, you > know.Above > > taken from Dr Mark Mostert disability/bioethics blog at Disability > > Matters:- http://disabilitymatters.blogspot.com"Nazi's All Over > > Again?"; It's here at Useless Eaters:- > > http://www.regent.edu/acad/schedu/uselesseaters Colin Revell > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Get a bird's eye view of the world with Multimap > > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/115454059/direct/01/ > > ________________End of message________________ > > > > This Disability-Research Discussion list is managed by the > Centre for > > Disability Studies at the University of Leeds > > (www.leeds.ac.uk/disability-studies). > > Enquiries about list administration should be sent to > > [log in to unmask] > > > > Archives and tools are located at: > > www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/disability-research.html > > You can VIEW, POST, JOIN and LEAVE the list by logging in > to this web page. > > > > ________________End of message________________ > > This Disability-Research Discussion list is managed by the > Centre for Disability Studies at the University of Leeds > (www.leeds.ac.uk/disability-studies). > Enquiries about list administration should be sent to > [log in to unmask] > > Archives and tools are located at: > www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/disability-research.html > You can VIEW, POST, JOIN and LEAVE the list by logging in to > this web page. ________________End of message________________ This Disability-Research Discussion list is managed by the Centre for Disability Studies at the University of Leeds (www.leeds.ac.uk/disability-studies). Enquiries about list administration should be sent to [log in to unmask] Archives and tools are located at: www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/disability-research.html You can VIEW, POST, JOIN and LEAVE the list by logging in to this web page. ________________End of message________________ This Disability-Research Discussion list is managed by the Centre for Disability Studies at the University of Leeds (www.leeds.ac.uk/disability-studies). Enquiries about list administration should be sent to [log in to unmask] Archives and tools are located at: www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/disability-research.html You can VIEW, POST, JOIN and LEAVE the list by logging in to this web page.