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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture Well, yes, that's exactly the point that John Harper has made, that it could actually be a cheaper way of performing the office with some elaboration but without the expense of a full choir. We're not entirely convinced that either (a) the church we are studying was likely to have had an organ or that (b) we could fit even the smallest reconstruction in the space available - but as I said we are doubtless going to have a good go over the issues in Saturday. A more general point. Is it possible that we are over-estimating the amount of skill and training needed for singing the Office, either as plainchant or as polyphony? Because we belong to a different musical tradition, because we have had to do so much academic work to recreate late medieval polyphony, because it has become something for academics and purists ... I wonder whether for singers brought up in that musical tradition it may have been both easier and more flexible, with perhaps not quite the high standards we are accustomed to expecting. Maddy Dr Madeleine Gray, in the foothills of God's golden county of Gwent Senior Lecturer in History School of Education/Ysgol Addysg University of Wales, Newport/Prifysgol Cymru, Casnewydd Caerleon Campus/Campws Caerllion,Newport/Casnewydd NP18 3QT, Wales/Cymru Tel: +44 (0)1633.432675 'I ask you for help. And all you give me is ...papers!' (Magda in Gian Carlo Menotti's The Consul) History at University of Wales, Newport: http://timezone.newport.ac.uk Gwent County History Association website: http://gwent-county-history-association.newport.ac.uk Cistercian Way: http://cistercian-way.newport.ac.uk -----Original Message----- From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious culture [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Briggs Sent: 11 November 2008 14:13 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [M-R] misericords and singing the Office medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture An organ could be seen as an alternative to a choir - or an alternate, of course. John Briggs Madeleine Gray wrote: > > We are bound to be talking this through at some length on Saturday - - > at a previous session, John and Sally Harper were arguing for the > possibility (no more) that the church at Llandeilo Talybont might have > had a small organ. Its permanent endowment was small but it was on a > pilgrimage route and there's a lot of evidence for rebuilding in the > late medieval period. There are also 2 potential patrons - the local > marcher lord, Charles Somerset earl of Worcester, and Sir Rhys ap > Thomas of Dinefwr. > > We will report back. > > Maddy > > Dr Madeleine Gray, in the foothills of God's golden county of Gwent > > Senior Lecturer in History > > School of Education/Ysgol Addysg > > University of Wales, Newport/Prifysgol Cymru, Casnewydd > > Caerleon Campus/Campws Caerllion,Newport/Casnewydd NP18 3QT, > Wales/Cymru > > Tel: +44 (0)1633.432675 > > > 'I ask you for help. And all you give me is ...papers!' > (Magda in Gian Carlo Menotti's The Consul) > > > > History at University of Wales, Newport: http://timezone.newport.ac.uk > Gwent County History Association website: > http://gwent-county-history-association.newport.ac.uk > Cistercian Way: http://cistercian-way.newport.ac.uk > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious > culture [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Jon > Cannon > Sent: 11 November 2008 11:45 > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: [M-R] misericords and singing the Office > > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and > culture > > > I wouldn't take my corrective too far: the very fact that I raised the > issue is proof that 'full' choir stalls would be very unusual in a > parish > church. Certainly my examples, if they come from the parish at all, > appear > to be linked to a local aristocratic patron. Still, it seems such > things could be possible, and certainly the C15 shows no shortage of > rich kittings-out of churches, even as you say in rural areas: Weston > in Gordano is only just over the Severn from you, as the crow flies, > or the saint swims (or floats, preferably atop a leaf or a millstone > or somesuch...). > > Jon > > > > Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 09:46:03 +0000From: > [log in to unmask]: Re: [M-R] misericords and singing > the > OfficeTo: [log in to unmask]: Scholarly > discussions of medieval religion and culture > > > I would have thought from the small amount of documentary material > (including its tax records - it was poor in 1291) that I have looked > at for Llandeilo Talybont that choir stalls would be a very > unauthentic addition to St Teilo's. If there was anything it is more > likely to be a bench than a stall I should think - but see Jon's > comments to argue against me and John - and your two remote parishes. > > Much looking forward to meeting you on Saturday. > > Rosemary Hayes > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Madeleine Gray > To: [log in to unmask] > Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 9:01 PM > Subject: Re: [M-R] misericords and singing the Office > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and > culture > > I was thinking more of secular colleges and of the chantries > Williamson referred to where teaching the children to sing was part > of the priest's duties. > In more practical terms, should I be looking for a choirboys' bench > built > into the stalls, or were they ever free-standing? (I'm thinking ahead > in case the Museum ever decides to go for stalls at Llandeilo > Talybont) > BTW - looking for something entirely different - I've come across > references in the Caernarvonshire Inventory of Ancient Monuments to > misericords in two very remote parishes in Llyn, at Abererch and > Llanengan. The Llanengan ones are particularly interesting: the N > stalls have plain misericords, the S set have fixed seats. > > Maddy > > > > Dr Madeleine Gray > Senior Lecturer in History > School of Education/Ysgol Addysg > University of Wales, Newport/Prifysgol Cymru, Casnewydd > Caerleon Campus/Campws Caerllion, > Newport/Casnewydd NP18 3QT Tel: +44 (0)1633.432675 > > 'You may not be able to change the world but at least you can > embarrass the guilty'(Jessica Mitford) > > > From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious > culture on behalf of John BriggsSent: Sun 09/11/2008 6:42 PMTo: > [log in to unmask]: Re: [M-R] misericords and > singing > the Office > > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and > cultureI'm a bit baffled as to what extent boys participated in the > main services.(And, by the end of the Middle Ages at least, whether > there were > still"children" in monasteries.) At monastic cathedrals I'm pretty > certain > thatboys only participated in the Lady Mass in the Lady Chapel (with > the hiredSinging Men). At secular cathedrals they certainly > participated at servicesin the Choir, but I don't know if that means > all of them.John BriggsMadeleine Gray wrote:>> Thanks, John. I shall > look out for those.> Were they expected to take part in the night > offices?>> From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of > medieval religious> culture on behalf of John Briggs> Sent: Sun > 09/11/2008 6:19 PM> To: [log in to unmask]> Subject: > Re: [M-R] misericords and singing the Office>> Boys sat on a bench in > front of the choirstalls.>> John Briggs>>> Madeleine Gray wrote:>>>> > That is actually a key point - a > lot of Magnus Williamson's evidence>> is for choirs of boys.>>>> From: > medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious>> > culture > on behalf of Marjorie Greene>> Sent: Sun 09/11/2008 2:05 PM>> To: > [log in to unmask]>> Subject: Re: [M-R] misericords and > singing the Office>>>> That would depend on where the, um, cheeks > were. I > frequent a>> monastery where the range in personal height goes from > under > 5' to>> over 6'. Thanks for the > info.******************************************************************* > ** > *To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR > NAMEto: [log in to unmask] send a message to the list, address > it to:[log in to unmask] leave the list, send the > message: leave medieval-religionto: [log in to unmask] order > to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write > to:[log in to unmask] further information, > visit > our web > site:http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html************* > ** > ******************************************************* To join the > list, > send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: > [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: > [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: > leave medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report > problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: > [log in to unmask] For further information, > visit our web site: > http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html****************** > ** > ************************************************** To join the list, > send > the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: > [log in to unmask] > To send a message to the list, address it to: > [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: > leave medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report > problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: > [log in to unmask] For further information, > visit our web site: > http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html > ********************************************************************** > To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME > to: [log in to unmask] > To send a message to the list, address it to: > [log in to unmask] > To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion > to: [log in to unmask] > In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: > [log in to unmask] > For further information, visit our web site: > http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html > > ********************************************************************** > To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME > to: [log in to unmask] > To send a message to the list, address it to: > [log in to unmask] > To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion > to: [log in to unmask] > In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: > [log in to unmask] > For further information, visit our web site: > http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html John Briggs ********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html ********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html