medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture I'd have to do some checking too, but my unchecked impression is (if it's any help) the same as John's.

The Llanengan matter raises a query that's been in my head since I encountered a delightfully primitive set of stalls with misericords in the little church of Weston-in-Gordano, Somerset (or whatever it's called now) a couple of weeks ago.

The guidebook said they might have come from a small nearby priory at nearby Easton-in-Gordano, but the church was stuffed with C15 fittings (screen, 'palm sunday' gallery in the porch, pulpit, pews, some surviving glass in the chancel, presumed patron's tomb squeezed in next to the screen: all in a tiny, aisless building) -- I assume they were part and parcel of the kind of rich liturgical refit one so often sees in the late med.

Has anyone else come across ordinary parish churches with choir stalls? There is no suggestion of a college of priests here, not even a tiny one, though I suppose one or two stray chantry priests might just have been around.

Jon

> Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 22:09:19 +0000
> From: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [M-R] misericords and singing the Office
> To: [log in to unmask]
>
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
>
> I would need to consult Charles Tracy's two volumes: "English Gothic
> Choir-Stalls, 1200-1400" and"English Gothic Choir-Stalls, 1400-1450".
> Unfortunately, my copies have too much piled on top of them! Without
> consulting them, I might expect a to cathedral to a back row of choirstalls
> with misericords (and canopies for the stalls) for the canons, with two
> benches in front of them: the second form for clerks and the first form for
> boys. I would expect the benches to be freestanding, but they could be
> incorporated in desks for the row behind (if those desks actually exist).
>
> For the Llanengan stalls, they have either been provided at different
> times - or imported from different places.
>
> John Briggs
>
>
> Madeleine Gray wrote:
> >
> > I was thinking more of secular colleges and of the chantries
> > Williamson referred to where teaching the children to sing was part
> > of the priest's duties.
> > In more practical terms, should I be looking for a choirboys' bench
> > built into the stalls, or were they ever free-standing? (I'm thinking
> > ahead in case the Museum ever decides to go for stalls at Llandeilo
> > Talybont)
> > BTW - looking for something entirely different - I've come across
> > references in the Caernarvonshire Inventory of Ancient Monuments to
> > misericords in two very remote parishes in Llyn, at Abererch and
> > Llanengan. The Llanengan ones are particularly interesting: the N
> > stalls have plain misericords, the S set have fixed seats.
> > ________________________________
> >
> > From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
> > culture on behalf of John Briggs
> > Sent: Sun 09/11/2008 6:42 PM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: [M-R] misericords and singing the Office
> >
> > I'm a bit baffled as to what extent boys participated in the main
> > services.
> > (And, by the end of the Middle Ages at least, whether there were still
> > "children" in monasteries.) At monastic cathedrals I'm pretty certain
> > that
> > boys only participated in the Lady Mass in the Lady Chapel (with the
> > hired
> > Singing Men). At secular cathedrals they certainly participated at
> > services
> > in the Choir, but I don't know if that means all of them.
> >
> > John Briggs
> >
> > Madeleine Gray wrote:
> >>
> >> Thanks, John. I shall look out for those.
> >> Were they expected to take part in the night offices?
> >>
> >> From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
> >> culture on behalf of John Briggs
> >> Sent: Sun 09/11/2008 6:19 PM
> >> To: [log in to unmask]
> >> Subject: Re: [M-R] misericords and singing the Office
> >>
> >> Boys sat on a bench in front of the choirstalls.
> >>
> >> John Briggs
> >>
> >>
> >> Madeleine Gray wrote:
> >>>
> >>> That is actually a key point - a lot of Magnus Williamson's evidence
> >>> is for choirs of boys.
> >>>
> >>> From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval
> >>> religious culture on behalf of Marjorie Greene
> >>> Sent: Sun 09/11/2008 2:05 PM
> >>> To: [log in to unmask]
> >>> Subject: Re: [M-R] misericords and singing the Office
> >>>
> >>> That would depend on where the, um, cheeks were. I frequent a
> >>> monastery where the range in personal height goes from under 5' to
> >>> over 6'. Thanks for the info.
>
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