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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture An organ could be seen as an alternative to a choir - or an alternate, of course. John Briggs Madeleine Gray wrote: > > We are bound to be talking this through at some length on Saturday - - > at a previous session, John and Sally Harper were arguing for the > possibility (no more) that the church at Llandeilo Talybont might have > had a small organ. Its permanent endowment was small but it was on a > pilgrimage route and there's a lot of evidence for rebuilding in the > late medieval period. There are also 2 potential patrons - the local > marcher lord, Charles Somerset earl of Worcester, and Sir Rhys ap > Thomas of Dinefwr. > > We will report back. > > Maddy > > Dr Madeleine Gray, in the foothills of God's golden county of Gwent > > Senior Lecturer in History > > School of Education/Ysgol Addysg > > University of Wales, Newport/Prifysgol Cymru, Casnewydd > > Caerleon Campus/Campws Caerllion,Newport/Casnewydd NP18 3QT, > Wales/Cymru > > Tel: +44 (0)1633.432675 > > > 'I ask you for help. And all you give me is ...papers!' > (Magda in Gian Carlo Menotti's The Consul) > > > > History at University of Wales, Newport: http://timezone.newport.ac.uk > Gwent County History Association website: > http://gwent-county-history-association.newport.ac.uk > Cistercian Way: http://cistercian-way.newport.ac.uk > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious > culture [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Jon > Cannon > Sent: 11 November 2008 11:45 > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: [M-R] misericords and singing the Office > > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and > culture > > > I wouldn't take my corrective too far: the very fact that I raised the > issue is proof that 'full' choir stalls would be very unusual in a > parish > church. Certainly my examples, if they come from the parish at all, > appear > to be linked to a local aristocratic patron. Still, it seems such > things could be possible, and certainly the C15 shows no shortage of > rich kittings-out of churches, even as you say in rural areas: Weston > in Gordano is only just over the Severn from you, as the crow flies, > or the saint swims (or floats, preferably atop a leaf or a millstone > or somesuch...). > > Jon > > > > Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 09:46:03 +0000From: > [log in to unmask]: Re: [M-R] misericords and singing > the > OfficeTo: [log in to unmask]: Scholarly > discussions of medieval religion and culture > > > I would have thought from the small amount of documentary material > (including its tax records - it was poor in 1291) that I have looked > at for Llandeilo Talybont that choir stalls would be a very > unauthentic addition to St Teilo's. If there was anything it is more > likely to be a bench than a stall I should think - but see Jon's > comments to argue against me and John - and your two remote parishes. > > Much looking forward to meeting you on Saturday. > > Rosemary Hayes > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Madeleine Gray > To: [log in to unmask] > Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 9:01 PM > Subject: Re: [M-R] misericords and singing the Office > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and > culture > > I was thinking more of secular colleges and of the chantries > Williamson referred to where teaching the children to sing was part > of the priest's duties. > In more practical terms, should I be looking for a choirboys' bench > built > into the stalls, or were they ever free-standing? (I'm thinking ahead > in case the Museum ever decides to go for stalls at Llandeilo > Talybont) > BTW - looking for something entirely different - I've come across > references in the Caernarvonshire Inventory of Ancient Monuments to > misericords in two very remote parishes in Llyn, at Abererch and > Llanengan. The Llanengan ones are particularly interesting: the N > stalls have plain misericords, the S set have fixed seats. > > Maddy > > > > Dr Madeleine Gray > Senior Lecturer in History > School of Education/Ysgol Addysg > University of Wales, Newport/Prifysgol Cymru, Casnewydd > Caerleon Campus/Campws Caerllion, > Newport/Casnewydd NP18 3QT Tel: +44 (0)1633.432675 > > 'You may not be able to change the world but at least you can > embarrass the guilty'(Jessica Mitford) > > > From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious > culture on behalf of John BriggsSent: Sun 09/11/2008 6:42 PMTo: > [log in to unmask]: Re: [M-R] misericords and > singing > the Office > > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and > cultureI'm a bit baffled as to what extent boys participated in the > main services.(And, by the end of the Middle Ages at least, whether > there were > still"children" in monasteries.) At monastic cathedrals I'm pretty > certain > thatboys only participated in the Lady Mass in the Lady Chapel (with > the hiredSinging Men). At secular cathedrals they certainly > participated at servicesin the Choir, but I don't know if that means > all of them.John BriggsMadeleine Gray wrote:>> Thanks, John. I shall > look out for those.> Were they expected to take part in the night > offices?>> From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of > medieval religious> culture on behalf of John Briggs> Sent: Sun > 09/11/2008 6:19 PM> To: [log in to unmask]> Subject: > Re: [M-R] misericords and singing the Office>> Boys sat on a bench in > front of the choirstalls.>> John Briggs>>> Madeleine Gray wrote:>>>> > That is actually a key point - a > lot of Magnus Williamson's evidence>> is for choirs of boys.>>>> From: > medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious>> > culture > on behalf of Marjorie Greene>> Sent: Sun 09/11/2008 2:05 PM>> To: > [log in to unmask]>> Subject: Re: [M-R] misericords and > singing the Office>>>> That would depend on where the, um, cheeks > were. I > frequent a>> monastery where the range in personal height goes from > under > 5' to>> over 6'. Thanks for the > info.******************************************************************* > ** > *To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR > NAMEto: [log in to unmask] send a message to the list, address > it to:[log in to unmask] leave the list, send the > message: leave medieval-religionto: [log in to unmask] order > to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write > to:[log in to unmask] further information, > visit > our web > site:http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html************* > ** > ******************************************************* To join the > list, > send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: > [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: > [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: > leave medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report > problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: > [log in to unmask] For further information, > visit our web site: > http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html****************** > ** > ************************************************** To join the list, > send > the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: > [log in to unmask] > To send a message to the list, address it to: > [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: > leave medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report > problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: > [log in to unmask] For further information, > visit our web site: > http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html > ********************************************************************** > To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME > to: [log in to unmask] > To send a message to the list, address it to: > [log in to unmask] > To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion > to: [log in to unmask] > In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: > [log in to unmask] > For further information, visit our web site: > http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html > > ********************************************************************** > To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME > to: [log in to unmask] > To send a message to the list, address it to: > [log in to unmask] > To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion > to: [log in to unmask] > In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: > [log in to unmask] > For further information, visit our web site: > http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html John Briggs ********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html