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terry, your post is long and tries to make logical arguments that associates the concept of information in the mathematical theory of communication with process, and ends with justifying your notion of information as entities independent of human functioning. in information theory, information is a measure of the difference in uncertainty between say, reading and not reading a text. while reading is a process, the differnec is not. if information is some thing that one could gather, hence exists outside of human beings, can you explain that one message which provides a certain amount of information, if sent a second time does not add to the former? information theoreticians would say the second message is redundant, you would have to conclude that each conveys the same amount of information. it follows that information cannot be an attribute of an entity (message). can you explain the fact that one message affords different readings for different people? if information were an entity, this would not make sense. the concept of information as an entity is associated with an authoritarianism that insists messages have but one reading. you seem to want to time-tag information by talking about new and old information. obviously, this time-tag has something to do with when someone reads it not with the entity in question. you refer to cybernetics without saying anything about the concepts you are alluding to by that name. you are saying that a theory must have more variety than what it represents. just the opposite is the case. any theory reduces the variety of phenomena to the variables it theorizes. the theory of free fall does not say anything about aerodynamics and weather conditions of the experiments conducted. sorry, your getting into abstractions and meta-abstractions does not convince me at all. let me add that there are theories other than shannon's and i am not taking what i said as the only approach. but whatever approach is taken, information is -- in varela's terms "in-formation" and according to ashby, cybernetics the study of systems that are informationally closed, an idea that is totally different from what you assert and i wished you wouldn't say you could speak as cybernetician. you asked for my thoughts klaus -----Original Message----- From: PhD-Design - This list is for discussion of PhD studies and related research in Design on behalf of Terence Love Sent: Mon 10/6/2008 12:27 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: information as an entity rather than an activity Dear Klaus, Apologies for the delay in replying to your messages of last week. Your main point as I understand it (see below) is differentiating two ways of viewing information. The first is as an object and the second as "the difference between two states of uncertainty". As I understand it, you regard the first as independent of human functioning (i.e. ahumanly objectivist) and the second as a fully engaged process of being human. From your messages it appears you tend towards the second position and regard that as correct, and you regard my position as being 'objectivist' and regard that as wrong. I'd like to suggest you are mistaken - for three reasons - and hope to persuade you to take a different view. First, I'd like to remind you about the meta structure and dynamics of theories. This is sometimes conceived as part of the core of cybernetics, where (in the simple view) theories typically consist of combinations of 'representative things' and 'representative processes' (or 'activities') that are arranged together into coherent chunks to represent situations and (with a bit of luck) offer us the ability to guess what might happen if we do certain things in the realm of what the theory covers. One way of describing the difference between our positions is to say that in talking about information I use a 'representative thing' type of approach, and you talk in theory terms about information as a process or activity. In terms of the everyday view of 'what it is to be human', your approach makes more sense. Humans are about doing things, processes and activities; like reading and thinking and processing. Stepping back to the abstract world of theory, as a cybernetic theoretician, things can look a little different - or perhaps the same. There are several characteristics we know about theories. One is that any theory must have the same or more amount of variety (sometimes seen as degrees of freedom) than the situation being theorized about. Otherwise, the theory simply can't be complicated enough to fully represent that situation. A crude application of this is the argument that we are not clever enough to understand how our brains work because that would need more brain etc. Another meta-characteristic of theories is that there always exists a large number of theories all equally capable of theoretically representing a situation provided they have sufficient variety (as described above). The variety approach suggests the number isn't infinite and its bound is related to the factorial of the amount of variety in the theories. In this abstract view, it doesn't matter whether real world aspects of a situation are related to 'representative things' or 'representative processes' in the sense that the entity-operator relationship is commutative. This is in much the same way that the theory of planetary behaviour that had the sun going round the earth works just as well as having the earth going round the sun (in fact many navigators still use the first). The situation is on one of differences of frames of reference. Solving some of the equations is easier one way but in essence both can accurately represent the situation. This is why Activity Theory can be (as I read recently) 'agnostic to agency' (if anyone has the reference I'd appreciate it). Humans and objects both have equivalent status in terms of being active. I suggest to you that the situation is similar with respect to information. A good reply would be that it is easier and makes more sense (as I said in para 4) to view information as a human activity. The problem is that this only takes you so far. At a certain point someone will want to know how this 'informationing' or 'informing' activity/process happens. To say it is a 'difference between two states' (as you said - see below) doesn't solve anything, and, as I'll suggest in the next section, moves you into the other camp. The problem is that if you look at the informationing/informing activity deeply it falls into two subactivities. One group of information activities is outside humans and the other inside humans. For the information activities outside humans it is fairly straightforward to use theories in which the idea of information is represented by objects. It is when humans are more intimately involved that the difficulties arise and it appears to make more sense to see information as an activity. The question then 'How does 'informing' or 'informationing' activity happen?' can be looked at in a variety of ways, e.g. psychologically, behaviorally, biologically, neurologically, informatically etc. At many points in any of the possible approaches, however, the information activity becomes a focus, in theory terms, 'an object' of the exploration or study. As far as I can see, this means there is always a fundamental 'object-ness' about the idea of information, even when it is regarded in some situations as a process. The third point is that (as a touchstone) you suggest that the alternative to seeing information in terms of it being an entity is that it is a 'difference between two states of uncertainty'. A 'state' is an objective phenomenon, i.e. it is a theoretical entity rather than a process. One of the theory characteristics referred to earlier applies to differences. A key characteristic of a 'difference' is that it always has the same properties as the two things it differentiates. That is, in terms of information, the difference has the properties of the 'states', i.e. information is an objective thing rather than a process or activity. Looking at things practically, I think what both of us are trying to achieve is to bring in the subjective dimension of what it is to be human with all the feelings, confusion, unpredictability and dependence on social influence that that entails. Its possible to build sound theory with information as a theory entity or a theoretical activity. There are advantages both ways in different situations. My feeling the advantage is with 'information as an entity' to bridge across all the theory realms of interest in understanding design and creativity. Thoughts? Terry === Dr. Terence Love Love Web Services For friendly website design and high quality web hosting For organisations, businesses, research centres, ePortfolios and conferences Tel/Fax: +61 (0)8 9305 7629 Mobile: +61 (0)434975 848 [log in to unmask] www.lovewebservices.com === <snip>Klaus (30/9/08), "all of this is secondary to the issue of whether information is an entity that you can search for, gather, or organize. this objectification hides the human participation in what is information, manifest in many of your assertions, including in your distinction between old and new information. i suggested to you to look into information theory where information is the difference between two states of uncertainty, before or after something was read or attended to. when conceptualizing information this way, it makes no sense to speak of old and new information or gathering information, or organizing information."<endsnip> -----Original Message----- From: PhD-Design - This list is for discussion of PhD studies and related research in Design [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Klaus Krippendorff Sent: Tuesday, 30 September 2008 12:36 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Organ, Organize, Organism ken, terry, eduardo and others, the discussion of the meaning of "organize" is a distraction from the point of not treating information as entities that one could find, gather, sort, organize, and process. one can find pebbles on the beach, gather documents in preparation for a meeting, organize a file, separate old from more recent correspondence, and scan documents to be edited on a computer, but one can't do those things to how people reduce their uncertainties, become more clear in their judgments, know what they should be doing -- information. associating design research with gathering or organizing new information created a cognitive trap right from the start. this is why i suggested -- merely to highlight the difference between (re)search and design: this is why i seriously suggested: (1) (re)search is the creation of information. information is what someone believes to be arguably correct and is committed to take it as such. the arguments involved may well include the use of acceptable methods. the emphasis on arguability renders information a social phenomenon, not an exclusively cognitive one, one of con-sensual coordination with others. (2) design is creatively extending, elaborating, questioning, and overcoming existing conceptions in view of the future realities they promote for others to live in. in my experiences design needs to find a delicate balance between accepting certain information and violating what everyone seems to take for granted and convince stakeholders in a design of its virtues. klaus