I agree with Jo in principle, and assume carbon quotas need to be assigned per head of population - as envisaged under Contraction and Convergence, but even there trading is included between above and below quota countries, and this will have monetary value.
 
Best wishes from Jim
 
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----- Original Message -----
From: "CHRIS KEENE" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Monday, October 06, 2008 2:10 AM
Subject: Re: European Carbon Control : Why I will NOT be signing the Avaaz petition

So how are your carbon quotas to be assigned Jo, if not by auctioning? 
Do you want them grandfathered as they are now, giving them away free to
polluters?

Chris

jo abbess wrote:

>Yes, there's a big chinwag going on in European quarters, but no, I shall not be signing the Avaaz petition this time :-
>
>http://www.avaaz.org/en/save_our_future_europe/?cl=133392283&v=2242
>
>Their big point (in a big font size) is "Europe should not hand out free permits to pollute after 2013".
>
>The
>option that they're hinting at is that the 100% Auction of Carbon
>Permits currently scheduled to be instated in 2020 should be drawn back
>to 2013 instead.
>
>I do not agree with the Auctioning of Carbon
>Permits. I spent a very long time looking at the Kyoto2 arguments from
>Oliver Tickell and decided that I am against.
>
>My reasoning is
>this : Money can never be made an adequate medium- to long-term proxy
>value for Carbon. In other words, a Carbon Price cannot be made to
>control Carbon.
>
>The reason for this is axiomatic : the value
>of Money itself derives principally from Carbon, since we are so
>dependent on Fossil Fuels.
>
>Thus, if you Price Carbon, the
>whole Economy is impacted, and re-stabilises itself at a lower
>"density" of value after a very short time.
>
>Rather like a Bubble, yes.
>
>This will not cause businesses and governments to de-Carbonise. It will just impoverish everyone and everything.
>
>My proposal is a strict application of Carbon Quotas, to implement a durable, real Carbon Cap.
>
>In effect, a controlled Recession.
>
>
>
>jo.
>+44 77 17 22 13 96
>http://www.changecollege.org.uk
>
>

>
>>Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 20:30:14 +0100
>>From:
[log in to unmask]
>>Subject: 48 hours to green Europe's future]
>>To:
[log in to unmask]
>>
>>PLEASE FORWARD WIDELY
>>
>>-------- Original Message --------
>>Subject: [SPAM] 48 hours to green Europe's future
>>Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2008 06:54:49 -0700
>>From: Paul Hilder - Avaaz.org
>>To:
[log in to unmask]
>>
>>
>>
>>Dear friends around Europe,
>>
>>Far from the eyes of the media, *elected representatives in the European
>>Parliament are writing a climate and energy plan for our continent.* As
>>citizens, we've campaigned hard for a global deal to stop catastrophic
>>global warming, and Europe's negotiators have driven progress in
>>international talks -- but if big polluters succeed in watering down
>>Europe's own climate action plan, all our momentum will be lost.[1] And
>>that's just what's happening right now.
>>
>>*This Tuesday afternoon, European parliamentarians are gathering to
>>finalise their proposals -- but the whole plan is being undermined by
>>industry lobbyists demanding they lock in massive "permits to pollute"*,
>>which would put emissions targets completely out of reach for 2020 and
>>beyond.[2] Before it's too late, *in the next 36 hours, let's deluge
>>representatives from our own countries with emails and phone calls* --
>>urging them not to give in to the lobbyists, and instead to put forward
>>strong plans to build a sustainable future for our societies, showing
>>the world the way forward.
>>
>>Just click the link below to see the names and phone numbers of the
>>representatives from your own country -- we've added a few "talking
>>points" you can use in your emails and phone calls:
>>
>>http://www.avaaz.org/en/save_our_future_europe/?cl=133392283&v=2242
>>
>>
>>*68 people from 27 countries -- the members of the European parliament
>>on its environment committee -- can fix this plan.* And there are tens
>>or hundreds of thousands of us in every one of these countries.
>>
>>We're told that the most effective thing we can do is for as many as
>>possible of us to email or call the offices of those representatives in
>>our own countries (particularly those from the conservative EPP umbrella
>>party, who have shown most signs of giving in to the lobbyists), making
>>the case for them not to compromise on permits to pollute and other
>>backward-looking loopholes, and asking them to invest in building a
>>cleaner, greener future for Europe. *At a time of economic difficulty
>>and high fossil fuel prices, efficiency and sustainability become even
>>more vital.*[3]
>>
>>*Just click the link below for everything you need -- names, phone
>>numbers, email addresses and suggestions about what to say. *And don't
>>delay -- we have hours, not days, to make a difference.
>>
>>http://www.avaaz.org/en/save_our_future_europe/?cl=133392283&v=2242
>>
>>
>>With hope and determination,
>>
>>Paul, Pascal, Veronique, Graziela, Ricken, Ben, Iain, Milena and the
>>whole Avaaz team
>>
>>Sources:
>>
>>1. For Avaaz's previous climate campaign successes, see
>>http://www.avaaz.org/en/bali_report_back/
>>
>>Reuters: "EU urged to agree on climate before UN talks open":
>>http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/LU300512.htm
>>
>>2. European Voice: "EPP-ED group split over carbon emissions"
>>http://www.europeanvoice.com/article/imported/epp-ed-group-split-over-carbon-emissions/62506.aspx
>>
>>
>>AFP: "WWF criticises attempts to water down EU's green targets"
>>http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5hJvhQ9ClFitMa4husGWkUZRYJxQQ
>>
>>Financial Times: "Climate change fears over industry lobbyists"
>>http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/4e47f656-88ba-11dd-a179-0000779fd18c.html
>>
>>EUX.tv: "EU set for 'Super Tuesday' with controversial vote on climate"
>>http://www.eux.tv/article.aspx?articleId=20536
>>
>>3. UK Stern Review: "Ignoring climate change will damage economic growth":
>>http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/media/4/3/executive_summary.pdf
>>
>>EU carbon market will not raise power prices:
>>http://www.euractiv.com/en/climate-change/report-eu-carbon-market-raise-power-prices/article-175667
>>
>>
>>------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>*ABOUT AVAAZ*
>>Avaaz.org is an independent, not-for-profit global campaigning
>>organization that works to ensure that the views and values of the
>>world's people inform global decision-making. (Avaaz means "voice" in
>>many languages.) Avaaz receives no money from governments or
>>corporations, and is staffed by a global team based in Ottawa, London,
>>Rio de Janeiro, New York, Paris, Sydney and Geneva.
>>
>>Click *here*  to learn more
>>about our largest campaigns.
>>
>>*Don't forget to check out our Facebook
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>>
>>
>>You are getting this message because you signed "BAN CLUSTER BOMBS NOW!
>>" on 2008-05-27 using the
>>email address
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>>To ensure that Avaaz messages reach your inbox, please add
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>>   
>>
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