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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture Terrific observation, John. I cannot think of any image I have seen from classical Greece that anyone has suggested was touched, the way the foot of St. P has been rubbed down. Such reliefs as the D-P-T were temple reliefs in prominent, expensive temples, & touching/rubbing does not seem to have been involved. Temples were places for performance of ritual & deposition of gifts, not for what we think of as worship or devotion. You might rub a little home statue of D or P, but there is no reason you would do so at the temple. There may have been a small wooden barrier to keep people from mucking up the artwork, though that is a guess. Before I could assume that the noses on the relief had been intentionally touched, I would want to look at the wear over the whole thing, possible restorations, & look into questions of authenticity & provenance. DW PS we learn in the 18th C of a very large statue of Demeter at Eleusis, now in the BM, mounded with manure. The locals said she kept the fields fertile. The visitor paid off the local Turkish ruler & took the statue to England, & by gosh, the locals reported that the fields hadn't done nearly as well since she left. I suspect she was always visible, & that the Demeter-grain connection was always remembered, however fuzzily. [The Eleusinian ritual involved shepherds looking for a miraculous new-born child, at night, & finding him in a cave in a sudden flare of light. A number of early Christians had been initiates at Eleusis, & not a single one ever revealed what actually went on. ] John Dillon wrote: > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture > > On Sunday, August 10, 2008, at 1:28 pm, Jim Bugslag wrote, quoting me: > > >>> The boy in this configuration is usually called Triptolemos (as in the >>> image caption for the view pointed to by Diana). The image shown >>> appears to have been retouched. Here's a fairly recent view of the >>> original piece (a stele, BTW, not -- as in the image caption -- a >>> frieze) in the National Archaeological Museum in Athens: >>> http://tinyurl.com/6ar9b7 And here's a view of a copy in the Eleusis >>> Museum at Eleusis: http://tinyurl.com/59o39k Larger view: >>> http://tinyurl.com/6g65qb >>> >>> In both of those, note the wearing of many of the surfaces (e.g. >>> Triptolemos's nose, Persephone's/Kore's nose, and her right arm). >>> >> John, >> Are you saying, or implying, here that the wearing was intentional, >> as, for example, in those >> parts of the image being touched by devotees? >> > > I don't see anything in my wording quoted above that could reasonably be taken as _saying_ that the wearing was intentional. The statement calls attention to the wearing but offers no comment on how that wearing might have occurred. > > Nor was I _implying_ that the wearing was intentional. My post, in response to an image posted by Diana Wright, observed that the image that she provided of the Eleusinian Triad seems to have been retouched. After my having then giving links to images of the corresponding original stele in Athens and of its copy at Eleusis, it might be thought reasonable to infer that my calling attention to the wearing visible on these related to the previous observation about the Diana-provided image's having been retouched. Anyone who clicks on the links in the sequence provided (i.e. starting with Diana's) should be able to see the differences in e.g. the nasal configurations of Triptolemos and of Persephone/Kore. > > >>> In this particular composition Triptolemus (receiving from Demeter the >>> grain with which he will instruct mankind in agriculture) appears to >>> me more a young man (kouros) than a small boy. >>> >> Well, if the Annaselbdritt did arise out of such a configuration, it >> certainly wouldn't be the only >> grain goddess imagery to characterize Christian iconography. >> > > Yes, but did it? There's no agricultural motif in the Anna metterza (also 'Anne trinitaire' or 'Annaselbdritt') images to possibly clinch such an origin. And, in contradistinction to the Mary/Christchild images that recall Isis/Horus ones, in this case we are dealing with a compositional type that arose not in early Christianity, when Isis worship was current and when there were still lots of Isis/Horus figures to be seen, but rather -- as far as I'm aware -- in the thirteenth century, when the Eleusinian Triad had been a dead letter for many centuries. > > So, were images of the Eleusinian Triad available to be viewed by Latin Christians in the thirteenth century (or in the twelfth, if the Anna metterza type turns out to be that old)? Unless they were, it would in this instance seem premature to postulate a derivation of the Christian type from the pre-Christian one. > > Best again, > John Dillon > > ********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html