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Hi all
 
the various mentions of HBSMR force me reluctantly to wrestle with the worms ...
 
Regarding Greg's point that his list in HBSMR differs from Phil's list, well as Sarah pointed out HBSMR has always used the INSCRIPTION list by default (though see below re overlap issue). However, and this is very important, the mapping of calendar years to period terms can be customised in HBSMR to reflect the prevailing archaeological/historical understanding for the geographical area concerned (i.e. the Scottish Highlands has rather different historical trajectories from Sussex, so needs different period terms, and also needs different time spans for those culture-historical terms that may be shared, such as"Roman", "Iron Age" etc).
In HBSMR it is the calendar years that are stored against the records. These calendar years are then converted to terms for display purposes using a look-up table that matches start/end years with terms. There's nothing wrong with having overlaps between these periods.
 
I don't actually think there is any disagreement around this issue among the HBSMR community, as it is both flexible and powerful. There has occasionally been a question about whether the assigned period terms should be stored as well, and then general agreement that this is better done in the descriptive texts linked to specific sources (rather than making the period recording potentially duplicated/ambiguous).
 
NB if any HBSMR users were unaware of all this (it is covered in the admin training ;-) and are now tempted to change things, please get in touch with us, because there a couple of things to consider if wanting to change the spans of existing periods.
 
Regarding the "overlap" issue, well HBSMR does permit true overlaps in period date ranges, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Example, "Victorian" and "19th Century" clearly must overlap. However, where two periods abut each other by definition, we adapted the INSCRIPTION list to make the earlier period end at the year before the later period starts. e.g. Early Med by default becomes 410AD to 1065AD, with Medieval being 1066AD to 1539AD. This was useful simply to prevent searches for Medieval returning all the Early Medieval records, which would logically occur if the two periods had shared the year 1066.
So, yes it's useful to amend "false" overlaps, but genuine overlaps are fine.
 
cheers
Crispin

From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of CARLISLE, Philip
Sent: 05 August 2008 09:47
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Dates / period lists

Hi Sarah,

The list I circulated is the latest evolution of the RCHME Periods wordlist as seen on the INSCRIPTION website. It includes a more detailed breakdown of the POST MEDIEVAL and the replacement of MODERN with 20th CENTURY and 21st CENTURY which are now used in the AMIE database. Unlike HBSMR it still contains overlaps in dates (which we will be removing soon-ish) and it doesn’t include pre-20th Century, centuries.

 

I circulated it as an example and not as the final word on the whole date period thing. As I mentioned we are currently revisiting timelines and periods and will circulate whatever we come up with for comments.

 

As members of this list know this particular can of worms was originally opened in 2000 when the e-conference on date/periods/timelines was held on the FISH list. We couldn’t reach agreement then and I don’t think much has changed since.  “Plus ça change, plus c’est la meme chose” as our French cousins might say.

 

I think Simon is right in saying that the only certain way to get around the problem of what you call the period for cross-searching purposes is by searching on dates. But until everyone thinks that way the labels we attach to the dates will always be needed if somewhat contentious

 

I’m going back into hiding now.

 

Phil

 

Phil Carlisle

Data Standards Supervisor

English Heritage

National Monuments Record Centre

Kemble Drive

Swindon

SN2 2GZ

+44 (0)1793 414824

 

http://thesaurus.english-heritage.org.uk/

 

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-----Original Message-----
From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Poppy Sarah
Sent: 05 August 2008 09:16
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Dates / period lists

 

Hi Phil

Without further opening the can of worms, the list you circulated yesterday also differs from that on Inscription in both detail and some of the dates, which was always used as the standard for HBSMR installations.   What's the status of this new list?

 

thanks

Sarah

-----Original Message-----
From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Gregory Chuter
Sent: 05 August 2008 09:05
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Dates / period lists

Hi Phil

The RCHME time line does not match the HBSMR time line we currently use. Will there be an amendment to this at some stage in line with the EH review of periods / timelines?.

 

Probably opening a whole can of worms here, but the RCHME time line also differs from the one defined by our currently running South East Research Framework. These differences between data sets / projects will surely cause problems for research and data collection in the future. 

Greg Chuter,
Assistant County Archaeologist
East Sussex County Council, Transport and Environment, County Hall, St Anne's Crescent, Lewes, East Sussex BN7 1UE
Tel: 01273 336177, Fax: 01273 479536, Mob: 07500123634
E-mail: [log in to unmask]

-----Original Message-----
From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of CARLISLE, Philip
Sent: 04 August 2008 17:38
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Dates / period lists

Hi Rachel,

I’m attaching a copy of the RCHME/EH/MIDAS/INSCRIPTION (depending on who you talk to depends on what it’s called!) in CSV format. We (EH) are currently revisiting the whole periods/timelines thing and will be soon updating the dates attached to the periods to remove overlaps and reflect current thinking, particularly with regards to the earlier periods.

 

The file includes our unique ids/parent_uids and the Chronological order field to allow you to build a mini-hierarchy but you can ignore these.

 

I know we’re not supposed to attach files but Bruce told me to do it so any complaints please hassle him!

 

Phil

 

 

 

Phil Carlisle

Data Standards Supervisor

English Heritage

National Monuments Record Centre

Kemble Drive

Swindon

SN2 2GZ

+44 (0)1793 414824

 

http://thesaurus.english-heritage.org.uk/

 

The information contained within this e-mail is confidential and may be privileged. It is intended for the addressee only. If you have received the e-mail in error, please inform the sender and delete it from your system. The contents of this e-mail must not be disclosed to anyone else or copied without the sender's consent.

Any views and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of English Heritage. English Heritage will not take any responsibility for the views of the author.

P Please do not print this e-mail unless you really need to

-----Original Message-----
From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Broomfield, Rachel (DEVELOPMENT)
Sent: 04 August 2008 17:09
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Dates / period lists

 

I'm hoping someone out there can help me. We are refining our HER to get it ready to go on the web next year and we are trying to assign dates to the various periods to make it easier for the public to search. However, what we have currently seems to vary greatly from other lists I've seen. Can anyone tell me if there is a definitive list out there somewhere and if so where. Alternatively, would people be prepared to share their lists with us so we can try and create a more comprehensive one?

Many thanks
Rachel

Rachel Broomfield
Historic Environment Officer
Plymouth City Council
Planning & Regeneration
Floor 8
Civic Centre
Plymouth
PL1 2EW

Tel: (01752) 307849 / Fax: (01752) 304231
Email: [log in to unmask]
Web: www.plymouth.gov.uk

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