Re: Horror Question
What’s quite surprising about the Einsatzgruppen is their lack of anti-Semitism. According to Christopher Browning’s research in Ordinary Men, the members of Reserve Police Battalion B came from Hamburg, where there was a small and very integrated Jewish population. The men had no prior sense of anti-Semitism, per se, since they didn’t really have “Jews” in their community, and the ones they did have were quite assimilated. That is, the propagandistic descriptions of the “JEW” had no real meaning or affect in this area of Germany. As such, in letters home to family, these men would write about the “hard work” they were doing, without giving any details, though they would describe it as “necessary.”
In Browning’s research, which is quite different from Goldhagen’s, although these individuals were extremely uncomfortable about shooting civilians simply because they were Jews, this action was made acceptable and “necessary” when combined propaganda and “bad science.” That is, as long as the killers believed the Jews were inferior, a danger to the master race, and as long as they could employ some significantly high level of cognitive dissonance, these men could sleep at night. Anti-Semites, these men were not; but if you combine an ability for cognitive dissonance with bad science, people can commit just about anything.
TL
On 8/27/08 2:50 PM, "bill harris" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Twenty million Russians died in World War Two--half of which were civilians. My point, ostensibly, is not to compare horror, but only to suggest that atrocities perpetrated against the Germans have been both overlooked by the victors and repressed by the vanquished because of their sentiment of collective guilt. Said poster has likewise taken a bit of time to read some of the copious material on Russian revenge killings following their incursion into Germany. This, the Russians interviewed freely admit. Likewise, there are several excellent books that describe post-war treatment of the German population which, shall we say, were not up to stated Anglo-American standards.
As for "true" repentance one will never know, as this involves internal states. Their observed behavior, however, clearly suggests a sense of shame far greater than that of the Japanese or even the Americans in Vietnam. Again, permit me to emphasize that the gradual wearing off of shame by the ravages of time seems to have permitted Germans to develop a new perspective. This in no way diminishes the guilt of the behavior of Germans sixty years ago in having started the war.
My citation of einsatzgrouppen in Goldhagen's book is, I feel, sufficient to understand the anti-Semitism that many "average" Germans felt. Or perhaps I should have translated einsatzgrouppen into English? I left it in the original out of respect for Goldhagen's work which, my love for Waida aside, stands as a far greater testimony than any movie might hope to do.
BH
----- Original Message -----
From: janet esti <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 12:50 PM
Subject: Re: Horror Question
How many Russians died in the war in total ?many more than 1.5 million I am sure. Amd how does the poster know what the Russians feel? Or that the Germans are truly repentant or have come to terms with what they did. As for many Germans having no anti-semitic attitudes during the war, perhaps the writer should watch "Eine Liebe in Deutschland" by Andrsej Wajda to see that you don't have to actively support the Nazis to do harm; passive support, petty jealousy, and fearful conformism will do the job. That too is horror: the banality of evil.
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2008 17:44:53 -0500
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Horror Question
To: [log in to unmask]
Catia,
Thanks for the reply.
From 19th January of 1944 until 2 May, 1.5 million German civilians were killed by the advancing Soviets. This--relative to the 100-day time span--is the largest mass murder in recorded history.
Furthermore, Grass' latest book, Crablike, describes the intentional sinking of a refugee ship in the Baltic by a Soviet Navy that seemed incapable of doing anything else. Incomprehensibly, he's been denounced within Germany because of service as a 18-year old in an SS formation during the last days of the war. Far better for some, it would seem, to have your mother raped and killed than to clip an SS insignia on your collar!
On the other hand, Goldhagen's book describes einsatzgroupen activity within Central Europe by non-military "average" Germans. To their credit, Goldhagen has drawn overflow crowds during his tours and lectures in Germany. Today, it would seem that many Germans are uncomfortable about the claims of innocence that they've grown up hearing for three generations now.
I short, this is Germany's historical burden, and I respect the fact that they've tried to deal with it far better than the Japanese or Russians: the former rely on "cultural" excuses for their own denial (I was under Zin?), while the later feel no sentiment for their own behavior other than having indulged in payback. This, it would appear, is a rather large academic issue, indeed.
The two German war films that I've seen--Das Boot and Stalingraad--seem to reflect a sense of duty and comradeship that requisite for survival; and that's all, because that's all there is. Unlike the even "artistic" American stuff, there are no excuses, no hyperextended metaphors, no schlock.
It would appear that for some "philosophy" designates a set of beliefs. On the other hand, for me it's simply about asking one more question. Glauber Rocha, for example, has re-defined the intersection of cinema and history. My view on Deleuze is simple: it's prima facie absurd to talk of him in any sense other than that of a broad, interpretive perspectivism.
BH
----- Original Message -----
From: Catia dos Santos <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2008 12:55 PM
Subject: Re: Horror Question
Bill, I agree with you totally, in particular to what concerns the nazi photos and starvation of Germans during the post-war. This is a topic that I wish it could be more presented, instead of this endlessly repetitions on Holocaust. Many Germans, that had no anti-jewish attitudes, suffered during that time, but seems nowadays that this "detail" is irrelevant to academia.
I apreciate the way you read Deleuze and also Godard, and I send you my understandind and my agreemet about your comments on their philosophy and cinema ideas, respectively.
Best regards
Cátia dos Santos
PhD in Comparative Literature PUC-Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
2008/8/24 bill harris <[log in to unmask]>
I feel sorry for a poster who, in his juvenile arrogance, bates and changes the subject of the thread. No one ever suggested that Godard explains horror; we were discussing "Philosophy".
As for Deleuze, you might want to read his passages on Willard in "Becoming Animal". Likewise, I feel that Deleuze's discussion on Moby Dick raises issues on how humans perceive monstrosity within the animal kingdom--the orthodox explanation not withstanding.
Monstrosity, then, would suggest a paranoiac misunderstanding of the animal world. We fear what we don't understand, and label as ugly that which looks extraordinary. These, decidedly, are not French traits. For example, in the early seventies I saw "The Exorcist" in Paris; only to witness catcalls, hisses and boos. Indeed, this indicates active avoidance of puerile imagery stuck together with religious mumbo-jumbo.
As it's spoken of in English by native users, The Nuclear Holocaust never happened. On the other hand, if you're referring to Hiroshima and Nagasaki, you're correct in stating that the official photos were suppressed for a decade.
Please remember, however, that images of the Nazi concentration camps were likewise kept under lock and key; and for a very good, and clearly-enunciated reason: Occupied Germany was under threat of starvation for five years after its surrender. Allied officials rightly feared that releasing images of German atrocities would result in an attitude that, shall we say, would have prevented you from ever having been born.
BH
From: Hans Heydebreck <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Friday, August 22, 2008 8:20 AM
Subject: Re: Horror Question
I feel sorry for the original poster of the question for getting such sub par answers, this feels at best like random quotation jeopardy. Godard? Ah, say no more. Deleuze, nudge, nudge. So Godard par Godard is the ultimate answer to all things horror, viz horror vacui?
The French have always avoided ugliness, in film as well as many other fields of pop culture (certainly in contemporary music), except for Les Yeux Sans Visage maybe and a handful of others, there isn´t much worth mentioning. There´s shamefully little on horror in the 60´s Cahiers on Horror, because that genre blossomed in the 70s and 80s, most notably in Italy, Spain, Canada and the US. Bad luck.
In my juvenile arrogance, I´d better avoid too scathing comments on Gojira the ultimate personification of war trauma, the tragic contradictory image of something painful and loved that only the horror genre can create, being called "fascist" while it took the US media ten years to print the first images of victims of the nuclear holocaust.
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