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What¹s quite surprising about the Einsatzgruppen is their lack of anti-Semitism. According to Christopher Browning¹s research in Ordinary Men, the members of Reserve Police Battalion B came from Hamburg, where there was a small and very integrated Jewish population. The men had no prior sense of anti-Semitism, per se, since they didn¹t really have ³Jews² in their community, and the ones they did have were quite assimilated. That is, the propagandistic descriptions of the ³JEW² had no real meaning or affect in this area of Germany. As such, in letters home to family, these men would write about the ³hard work² they were doing, without giving any details, though they would describe it as ³necessary.² In Browning¹s research, which is quite different from Goldhagen¹s, although these individuals were extremely uncomfortable about shooting civilians simply because they were Jews, this action was made acceptable and ³necessary² when combined propaganda and ³bad science.² That is, as long as the killers believed the Jews were inferior, a danger to the master race, and as long as they could employ some significantly high level of cognitive dissonance, these men could sleep at night. Anti-Semites, these men were not; but if you combine an ability for cognitive dissonance with bad science, people can commit just about anything. TL On 8/27/08 2:50 PM, "bill harris" <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > Twenty million Russians died in World War Two--half of which were civilians. > My point, ostensibly, is not to compare horror, but only to suggest that > atrocities perpetrated against the Germans have been both overlooked by the > victors and repressed by the vanquished because of their sentiment of > collective guilt. Said poster has likewise taken a bit of time to read some of > the copious material on Russian revenge killings following their incursion > into Germany. This, the Russians interviewed freely admit. Likewise, there are > several excellent books that describe post-war treatment of the German > population which, shall we say, were not up to stated Anglo-American > standards. > > As for "true" repentance one will never know, as this involves internal > states. Their observed behavior, however, clearly suggests a sense of shame > far greater than that of the Japanese or even the Americans in Vietnam. Again, > permit me to emphasize that the gradual wearing off of shame by the ravages of > time seems to have permitted Germans to develop a new perspective. This in no > way diminishes the guilt of the behavior of Germans sixty years ago in having > started the war. > > My citation of einsatzgrouppen in Goldhagen's book is, I feel, sufficient to > understand the anti-Semitism that many "average" Germans felt. Or perhaps I > should have translated einsatzgrouppen into English? I left it in the original > out of respect for Goldhagen's work which, my love for Waida aside, stands as > a far greater testimony than any movie might hope to do. > > BH >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: janet esti <mailto:[log in to unmask]> >> >> To: [log in to unmask] >> >> Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 12:50 PM >> >> Subject: Re: Horror Question >> >> >> How many Russians died in the war in total ?many more than 1.5 million I am >> sure. Amd how does the poster know what the Russians feel? Or that the >> Germans are truly repentant or have come to terms with what they did. As for >> many Germans having no anti-semitic attitudes during the war, perhaps the >> writer should watch "Eine Liebe in Deutschland" by Andrsej Wajda to see that >> you don't have to actively support the Nazis to do harm; passive support, >> petty jealousy, and fearful conformism will do the job. That too is horror: >> the banality of evil. >> >> >> >> >> >> Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2008 17:44:53 -0500 >> From: [log in to unmask] >> Subject: Re: Horror Question >> To: [log in to unmask] >> >> >> >> Catia, >> >> >> >> Thanks for the reply. >> >> >> >> From 19th January of 1944 until 2 May, 1.5 million German civilians were >> killed by the advancing Soviets. This--relative to the 100-day time span--is >> the largest mass murder in recorded history. >> >> >> >> Furthermore, Grass' latest book, Crablike, describes the intentional sinking >> of a refugee ship in the Baltic by a Soviet Navy that seemed incapable of >> doing anything else. Incomprehensibly, he's been denounced within Germany >> because of service as a 18-year old in an SS formation during the last days >> of the war. Far better for some, it would seem, to have your mother raped >> and killed than to clip an SS insignia on your collar! >> >> >> >> On the other hand, Goldhagen's book describes einsatzgroupen activity within >> Central Europe by non-military "average" Germans. To their credit, Goldhagen >> has drawn overflow crowds during his tours and lectures in Germany. Today, >> it would seem that many Germans are uncomfortable about the claims of >> innocence that they've grown up hearing for three generations now. >> >> >> >> I short, this is Germany's historical burden, and I respect the fact that >> they've tried to deal with it far better than the Japanese or Russians: the >> former rely on "cultural" excuses for their own denial (I was under Zin?), >> while the later feel no sentiment for their own behavior other than having >> indulged in payback. This, it would appear, is a rather large academic issue, >> indeed. >> >> >> >> The two German war films that I've seen--Das Boot and Stalingraad--seem to >> reflect a sense of duty and comradeship that requisite for survival; and >> that's all, because that's all there is. Unlike the even "artistic" American >> stuff, there are no excuses, no hyperextended metaphors, no schlock. >> >> >> >> It would appear that for some "philosophy" designates a set of beliefs. On >> the other hand, for me it's simply about asking one more question. Glauber >> Rocha, for example, has re-defined the intersection of cinema and history. My >> view on Deleuze is simple: it's prima facie absurd to talk of him in any >> sense other than that of a broad, interpretive perspectivism. >> >> >> >> BH >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> >>> From: Catia dos Santos <mailto:[log in to unmask]> >>> >>> To: [log in to unmask] >>> >>> Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2008 12:55 PM >>> >>> Subject: Re: Horror Question >>> >>> >>> >>> Bill, I agree with you totally, in particular to what concerns the nazi >>> photos and starvation of Germans during the post-war. This is a topic that >>> I wish it could be more presented, instead of this endlessly repetitions on >>> Holocaust. Many Germans, that had no anti-jewish attitudes, suffered during >>> that time, but seems nowadays that this "detail" is irrelevant to academia. >>> I apreciate the way you read Deleuze and also Godard, and I send you my >>> understandind and my agreemet about your comments on their philosophy and >>> cinema ideas, respectively. >>> >>> Best regards >>> >>> Cátia dos Santos >>> PhD in Comparative Literature PUC-Rio de Janeiro, Brazil >>> >>> >>> 2008/8/24 bill harris <[log in to unmask]> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I feel sorry for a poster who, in his juvenile arrogance, bates and >>>> changes the subject of the thread. No one ever suggested that Godard >>>> explains horror; we were discussing "Philosophy". >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> As for Deleuze, you might want to read his passages on Willard in >>>> "Becoming Animal". Likewise, I feel that Deleuze's discussion on Moby Dick >>>> raises issues on how humans perceive monstrosity within the animal >>>> kingdom--the orthodox explanation not withstanding. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Monstrosity, then, would suggest a paranoiac misunderstanding of the >>>> animal world. We fear what we don't understand, and label as ugly that >>>> which looks extraordinary. These, decidedly, are not French traits. For >>>> example, in the early seventies I saw "The Exorcist" in Paris; only to >>>> witness catcalls, hisses and boos. Indeed, this indicates active avoidance >>>> of puerile imagery stuck together with religious mumbo-jumbo. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> As it's spoken of in English by native users, The Nuclear Holocaust never >>>> happened. On the other hand, if you're referring to Hiroshima and >>>> Nagasaki, you're correct in stating that the official photos were >>>> suppressed for a decade. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Please remember, however, that images of the Nazi concentration camps were >>>> likewise kept under lock and key; and for a very good, and >>>> clearly-enunciated reason: Occupied Germany was under threat of starvation >>>> for five years after its surrender. Allied officials rightly feared that >>>> releasing images of German atrocities would result in an attitude that, >>>> shall we say, would have prevented you from ever having been born. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> BH >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> From: Hans Heydebreck <mailto:[log in to unmask]> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> To: [log in to unmask] >>>>> >>>>> Sent: Friday, August 22, 2008 8:20 AM >>>>> >>>>> Subject: Re: Horror Question >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I feel sorry for the original poster of the question for getting such sub >>>>> par answers, this feels at best like random quotation jeopardy. Godard? >>>>> Ah, say no more. Deleuze, nudge, nudge. So Godard par Godard is the >>>>> ultimate answer to all things horror, viz horror vacui? >>>>> >>>>> The French have always avoided ugliness, in film as well as many other >>>>> fields of pop culture (certainly in contemporary music), except for Les >>>>> Yeux Sans Visage maybe and a handful of others, there isn´t much worth >>>>> mentioning. There´s shamefully little on horror in the 60´s Cahiers on >>>>> Horror, because that genre blossomed in the 70s and 80s, most notably in >>>>> Italy, Spain, Canada and the US. Bad luck. >>>>> >>>>> In my juvenile arrogance, I´d better avoid too scathing comments on >>>>> Gojira the ultimate personification of war trauma, the tragic >>>>> contradictory image of something painful and loved that only the horror >>>>> genre can create, being called "fascist" while it took the US media ten >>>>> years to print the first images of victims of the nuclear holocaust. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> * >>>>> * >>>>> Film-Philosophy salon >>>>> After hitting 'reply' please always delete the text of the message you >>>>> are replying to. >>>>> To leave, send the message: leave film-philosophy to: >>>>> [log in to unmask] >>>>> Or visit: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/film-philosophy.html >>>>> For help email: [log in to unmask], not the salon. >>>>> * >>>>> Film-Philosophy online: http://www.film-philosophy.com >>>>> Contact: [log in to unmask] >>>>> ** >>>> * * Film-Philosophy Email Discussion Salon. 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