----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 2:52
PM
Subject: Re: Horror Question
It's not a
contest.
Still, if it were...it's hard to compare the two
countries when it comes to the events of WWII, plus you will recall that it
was the Italians themselves who executed Mussolini; Hitler took care of his
own death. Obviously there's no way of knowing how things would have turned
out if he hadn't, but based on Germany's historical relations with its own
leaders, it is probable that Hitler would have been put on trial by the
Americans.
Moreover, when you speak of "Germans"...there needs to be
some kind of distinction, I think, between not only generations but between
East and West as well.
Though the lines have been erased, so to speak, the
presence of the largest neo-Nazi group in Leipzig seems to imply that
attitudes are not clear cut across today's Germany.
Either way,
there remain a plethora of corporations that have yet to acknowledge and/or
apologize for their role in the war, especially when it comes to using slave
labour, even of their own civilians. What's most astonishing, when there
are apologies and acknowledgements on the public stage, it is that it's the
"wrong" generation apologizing for the sins of past generations.
Collective guilt is an empty sentiment when the guilty
themselves are keeping silent.
TL
On 8/27/08 8:07 PM, "Nicky
Hamlyn" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
At least the
Germans have made the effort to come to terms with racism, so that they do
not repeat the mistakes of the past, unlike the Italians, who are apparently
(sleep?) walking into renewed racism with the Lega Nord, the victimisation
of gypsies and the actions of the mayor of Rome, Paolo Alemanno, who wants
to name a street in Rome after Giorgio Almitrante, one of those responsible
for the deportation of Jews during WW2 (Almirante was said later to have
"regretted" this). Even his widow said she could not understand why
Alemanno wanted to name another street after her husband, as there are
already hundreds in Italy!
Hope this post isn't seen as itself
racist. I'm referring to key figures in Italian politics, not the entire
population,
Nicky Hamlyn.
On 27 Aug 2008, at
14:50, bill harris wrote:
Twenty million Russians died in World War
Two--half of which were civilians. My point, ostensibly, is not to compare
horror, but only to suggest that atrocities perpetrated against the
Germans have been both overlooked by the victors and repressed by the
vanquished because of their sentiment of collective guilt. Said
poster has likewise taken a bit of time to read some of the copious
material on Russian revenge killings following their incursion into
Germany. This, the Russians interviewed freely admit. Likewise, there are
several excellent books that describe post-war treatment of the German
population which, shall we say, were not up to stated Anglo-American
standards.
As for "true" repentance one will never know, as
this involves internal states. Their observed behavior, however, clearly
suggests a sense of shame far greater than that of the Japanese or even
the Americans in Vietnam. Again, permit me to emphasize that the gradual
wearing off of shame by the ravages of time seems to
have permitted Germans to develop a new perspective. This in no way
diminishes the guilt of the behavior of Germans sixty years ago in having
started the war.
My citation
of einsatzgrouppen in Goldhagen's book is, I feel,
sufficient to understand the anti-Semitism that many "average" Germans
felt. Or perhaps I should have
translated einsatzgrouppen into English? I left it in the
original out of respect for Goldhagen's work which, my love for Waida
aside, stands as a far greater testimony than any movie might hope to
do.
BH
----- Original Message
-----
From: janet esti <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Tuesday,
August 26, 2008 12:50 PM
Subject: Re: Horror
Question
How many Russians died in the war in total ?many
more than 1.5 million I am sure. Amd how does the poster know what the
Russians feel? Or that the Germans are truly repentant or have come to
terms with what they did. As for many Germans having no anti-semitic
attitudes during the war, perhaps the writer should watch "Eine Liebe in
Deutschland" by Andrsej Wajda to see that you don't have to actively
support the Nazis to do harm; passive support, petty jealousy, and
fearful conformism will do the job. That too is horror: the banality of
evil.
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2008 17:44:53 -0500
From:
[log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Horror Question
To:
[log in to unmask]
Catia,
Thanks for the
reply.
From 19th January of 1944 until 2 May, 1.5 million
German civilians were killed by the advancing Soviets.
This--relative to the 100-day time span--is the largest mass murder in
recorded history.
Furthermore, Grass' latest
book, Crablike, describes the intentional sinking of a
refugee ship in the Baltic by a Soviet Navy that seemed incapable
of doing anything else. Incomprehensibly, he's been denounced
within Germany because of service as a 18-year old in an SS formation
during the last days of the war. Far better for some, it would seem, to
have your mother raped and killed than to clip an SS insignia on your
collar!
On the other hand, Goldhagen's book
describes einsatzgroupen activity within Central Europe
by non-military "average" Germans. To their credit, Goldhagen has drawn
overflow crowds during his tours and lectures in Germany. Today, it
would seem that many Germans are uncomfortable about the claims of
innocence that they've grown up hearing for three generations
now.
I short, this is Germany's historical burden, and I
respect the fact that they've tried to deal with it far better than the
Japanese or Russians: the former rely on "cultural" excuses for their
own denial (I was under Zin?), while the later feel no sentiment for
their own behavior other than having indulged in payback. This, it would
appear, is a rather large academic issue, indeed.
The two
German war films that I've seen--Das Boot and Stalingraad--seem to
reflect a sense of duty and comradeship that requisite for survival; and
that's all, because that's all there is. Unlike the even "artistic"
American stuff, there are no excuses, no hyperextended metaphors, no
schlock.
It would appear that for some "philosophy"
designates a set of beliefs. On the other hand, for me it's simply about
asking one more question. Glauber Rocha, for example, has re-defined the
intersection of cinema and history. My view on Deleuze is simple: it's
prima facie absurd to talk of him in any sense other than that of a
broad, interpretive
perspectivism.
BH
----- Original Message
-----
From: Catia dos Santos <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Sunday,
August 24, 2008 12:55 PM
Subject: Re: Horror
Question
Bill, I agree with you totally, in particular to what
concerns the nazi photos and starvation of Germans during the
post-war. This is a topic that I wish it could be more presented,
instead of this endlessly repetitions on Holocaust. Many Germans, that
had no anti-jewish attitudes, suffered during that time, but seems
nowadays that this "detail" is irrelevant to academia.
I apreciate
the way you read Deleuze and also Godard, and I send you my
understandind and my agreemet about your comments on their philosophy
and cinema ideas, respectively.
Best regards
Cátia dos
Santos
PhD in Comparative Literature PUC-Rio de Janeiro,
Brazil
2008/8/24 bill
harris <[log in to unmask]>
I feel sorry for a poster who, in
his juvenile arrogance, bates and changes the subject of the
thread. No one ever suggested that Godard explains horror; we were
discussing "Philosophy".
As for Deleuze, you might want
to read his passages on Willard in "Becoming
Animal". Likewise, I feel that Deleuze's discussion on Moby
Dick raises issues on how humans perceive monstrosity
within the animal kingdom--the orthodox explanation not
withstanding.
Monstrosity, then, would suggest a
paranoiac misunderstanding of the animal world. We fear what we
don't understand, and label as ugly that which looks extraordinary.
These, decidedly, are not French traits. For example, in the early
seventies I saw "The Exorcist" in Paris; only to witness catcalls,
hisses and boos. Indeed, this indicates active avoidance of
puerile imagery stuck together with religious
mumbo-jumbo.
As it's spoken of in English by native
users, The Nuclear Holocaust never happened. On the other hand,
if you're referring to Hiroshima and Nagasaki, you're correct
in stating that the official photos were suppressed for a
decade.
Please remember, however, that images of the
Nazi concentration camps were likewise kept under lock and key; and
for a very good, and clearly-enunciated reason: Occupied Germany was
under threat of starvation for five years after its surrender.
Allied officials rightly feared that releasing images of German
atrocities would result in an attitude that, shall we
say, would have prevented you from ever having been
born.
BH
From: Hans
Heydebreck <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Friday,
August 22, 2008 8:20 AM
Subject: Re: Horror
Question
I feel sorry for the original poster of the
question for getting such sub par answers, this feels at best like
random quotation jeopardy. Godard? Ah, say no more. Deleuze,
nudge, nudge. So Godard par Godard is the ultimate answer to all
things horror, viz horror vacui?
The French have always
avoided ugliness, in film as well as many other fields of pop
culture (certainly in contemporary music), except for Les Yeux
Sans Visage maybe and a handful of others, there isn´t much worth
mentioning. There´s shamefully little on horror in the 60´s
Cahiers on Horror, because that genre blossomed in the 70s and
80s, most notably in Italy, Spain, Canada and the US. Bad
luck.
In my juvenile arrogance, I´d better avoid too
scathing comments on Gojira the ultimate personification of war
trauma, the tragic contradictory image of something painful and
loved that only the horror genre can create, being called
"fascist" while it took the US media ten years to print the first
images of victims of the nuclear
holocaust.
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