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1. Definitional understanding isn't everything - (not by a long chalk) - but it is necessary. 2. Avant-garde is required but necessarily challenges the existing approach. A question regularly put to users is 'what is a record?' For the most part, and guaranteed, they'll not have a clue, and nor will they be particularly interested in finding out either. The problem of how to arrange the corporate record, when no one knows what a record is and even fewer are interested in finding out, means that classification has to enforced at the desktop. ie Classification thinking needs to be done for people - system control - intellectual control etc and prior to - oops - EDRMS. (enforced rules) This beggars the whole question of ownership, and doesn't fit too well (at least currently) with the autonomous world of Web2/3. Gerry Newcastle University ________________________________ From: The UK Records Management mailing list [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Steve Bailey - JISC infoNet Sent: 21 July 2008 15:15 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Comparative definitions of Classification and Taxonomy Though I guess this also begs the question of why, despite the presence for the past half century or more, of records management (with all its traditional 'rules') does this 'chaos' still exist? Hence suggesting that now might be a good time for the profession to fundamentally question whether its current rules are, indeed, fit for purpose (as explored further in my book, Managing the Crowd <http://www.facetshop.co.uk/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=1&Pr oduct_Code=641-1&Category_Code=> if you can excuse the blatant plug) But that is a can of worms which is probably best left for another day... Steve From: Tinsley, Chris [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Sent: 21 July 2008 14:40 To: Steve Bailey - JISC infoNet; RECORDS-MANAGEMENT-UK Subject: RE: Comparative definitions of Classification and Taxonomy It would be unkind to disagree with Steve but the view from my sector is that we are moving towards an hierarchical classification scheme not away from it, to try and sort out the chaos that exists. I am pretty sure that Paul, who posed the original question is coming from the same direction. Chris Tinsley MSc Wiltshire County Council Information is the key ________________________________ From: The UK Records Management mailing list [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Steve Bailey - JISC infoNet Sent: 21 July 2008 14:18 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Comparative definitions of Classification and Taxonomy Unkind, moi? Merely pointing out the irony in David's statement that whilst we are still trying to define what it means, most of those who actually create and use the information we manage seem to have moved away from a reliance on hierarchical classification schemes some time ago... Hey, I'm all for rules - so long as they stand up to scrutiny and still serve a purpose. There's nothing to stop us changing existing ones; or making up new ones when the need arises. After all, it wasn't too many centuries ago that it was a 'rule' that you didn't sail as far as the horizon for fear of falling off the edge ;-) Steve From: The UK Records Management mailing list [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Sharp, Deirdre Sent: 21 July 2008 14:05 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Comparative definitions of Classification and Taxonomy Steve Oh how unkind - a few basic rules still come in handy, don't they. But I'd be on your side in being fed up to the back teeth with all the smartarse pseudoscience and pseudophilosphy littering the place (have I now revealed that records managers are a bunch of pseuds who don't like to admit to being housekeepers?) Deirdre Sharp -----Original Message----- From: The UK Records Management mailing list [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Steve Bailey - JISC infoNet Sent: 21 July 2008 13:37 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Comparative definitions of Classification and Taxonomy "Before the onset of electronic records (taxonomy/classification) was often used in the sciences - particularly biology" Interesting that even after the rest of the world has moved on (and well after 'the onset of electronic records') that records management still stands by it... Steve Steve Bailey Senior Adviser (Records Management) JISC infoNet Northumbria University Room 303, Hadrian House Higham Place, Newcastle upon Tyne, NE1 8AF Tel: 07092 302850 Fax: + 44 (0) 191 243 8469 Email: [log in to unmask] Web: http://www.jiscinfonet.ac.uk <http://www.jiscinfonet.ac.uk> Blog: http://rmfuturewatch.blogspot.com/ <http://rmfuturewatch.blogspot.com/> From: The UK Records Management mailing list [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of David Bridge Sent: 21 July 2008 13:03 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Comparative definitions of Classification and Taxonomy Surely taxonomy can be [is] defined as the science of classification - often resulting in a list of hierarchical related terms [see also etc.] Before the onset of electronic records was often used in the sciences - particularly biology Regards David Gerry Dane <[log in to unmask]> Sent by: The UK Records Management mailing list <[log in to unmask]> 21/07/2008 12:39 Please respond to Gerry Dane <[log in to unmask]> To [log in to unmask] cc Subject Re: Comparative definitions of Classification and Taxonomy Other than that taxonomy is usually found within the context of scientific classification, I've never really considered a substantial difference between the two - always thought of them as interchangeable terms. (though 'classification' is the more used term) See the activity as the same and the info as different - ie classifying Lepidoptera (though more complex) doesn't differ that much from classifying Finance or HR activities? (still trying to name the parts of things) Gerry Newcastle University ________________________________ From: The UK Records Management mailing list [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Paul Dodgson Sent: 21 July 2008 12:07 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Comparative definitions of Classification and Taxonomy Hi I am seeking a definition of taxonomy which creates a clear distinction between taxonomy and classification. If anyone can lead me to a useful link, it would be much appreciated. Also useful would be any views that consider taxonomy and classification as being the same and that there is no clear distinction in definition terms. Why? I need to define and contextualise the two as part of work for my MSc in Records Management. 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