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David and Jasmine Yes very interesting distinction - and one that is noted by practitioner historians of witchcraft - I'm thinking of the "cunning man" Jack Daw for example - who often points out the importance of "solomonic" grimoires to eighteenth century witchcraft. Maybe there is still work to be done on the Saxon and Germano-Celtic stuff - which is also prone to "political" bias of one sort or another. Interesting though - that RH "debunks" the neo-pagan view that churches were built on pre-existing pagan sites (as indeed they were in the classical world) - whereas for example practitioner/scholar Jan Fries talks about the ephemeral nature of Germano/Celtic pagans sites that may not show up in the archeaological record. So sometimes neopagan "foundation myths" are not so stupid. "Love and do what you will" Mogg wrote: > I wonder how much of this relates to the issues of historical and > cultural specific vs broad conceptions of the Paganism of antiquity. > eg I think very clearly when you look a Wicca as in terms of > gnosticism and the hermetic traditions developed through the European > appropriation of Greek and Egyptian thought (influenced by Arabic and > Jewish mysticism etc etc) it very clearly has aspects which are > derived from very ancient origins. I don't think this is in dispute > by anyone seriously. This is why the OTO and Wicca are often seen as > very close cousins. I would however doubt that Wicca has the kinds of > rural English Saxon and Germano-Celtic origins its usually presented > as having (or for that matter the whole Murray Witch Cult idea) and > this tends to be the problematic aspect of its publically presented > history at least in the mainstream. It just doesn't gel with either > history or the archaeological record with the Celtic and Saxon origins > it is usually linked with let alone the rural tribal associations > given to it in public discourse. Cheers > David > > mandrake wrote: >> Dear All >> >> Just a thought on the ancient roots of neo-pagan and modern wiccan >> ritual - >> Professor Geof Samuel presented a paper on the parallels between >> "Tantra" and Wicca at a JSM conference in MK. >> Wiccans often do acknowledge a connection to "Tantra". >> If "Tantra" - or more accurately "Kaula" is a late classical, magical >> tradition - with links to the Mediteranean - >> then maybe modern Wiccan ritual is not so different to ancient modes >> afterall? >> Theories come and go - and this is an area where data has often been >> suppressed and ignored by academics - >> so hold onto your paradigms : ) >> >> "Love and do what you will" >> >> Mogg >> >> PS: My own slim volume "Tantra Sadhana: a practical introduction to >> Kaula magick" is just published by Mandrake >> and I will be discussing and updating some of possible Hermetic >> elements in Kaula magick at the "Albion OTO Conference" - >> then on Youtube etc. >> >> >>> >>> >> > >