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I'll try to put it in a wider perspective: poetry that doesn't question its own status as culture is of neccessity limited to the voice of its own group. It becomes a statement of dress-wear. Darwin and the Tierra de Fuegans, Swift and the Yahoos, King Lear and the poor bare forked animal, that's where things get interesting. 2008/5/25 David Bircumshaw <[log in to unmask]>: > I'm not trying to start a class war, Judy. Most manufactured goods in > Britain aren't made by the labour of an impoverished indigenous > working-class by the overseas poor. So in that sense the working-class > has disappeared here because most production has gone to where it is > neither seen nor heard. That's what globalisation means. > Traditional working-class areas in Britain are characterised by > high-dependence on benefits, racial divisions and work in the service > industry if you're lucky. > > 2008/5/25 judy prince <[log in to unmask]>: >> Anybody out there willing to define, describe---specify---wot "working" >> class means to them, to any of us, to UK'ers, to USAmericans, to >> Australians, to Italians, to Finns? Seems as if your immediately below >> response is a polar flare, but not a linchpin for useful debate. Let me >> read your +considered+ view, huh, Dave? >> >> Judy >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Bircumshaw" >> <[log in to unmask]> >> To: <[log in to unmask]> >> Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2008 8:10 AM >> Subject: Re: New beats (???) >> >> >>> Roger >>> >>> my terminology was descriptive. I can't make things to be other than >>> they are. I've met lots of these people over the years, some of them >>> are very open and engaging, including Anne-Marie Fyffe for instance, >>> some are dull, some narcissistic and some downright obnoxious, but >>> they are all middle-class, that's an accurate description of their >>> social status. >>> The working-class of course don't exist anymore as they all live in >>> China. Or might as well do so. Or have no jobs at all. >>> >>> >>> >>> 2008/5/25 Roger Collett <[log in to unmask]>: >>>> >>>> Which current British authors would you consider to be working class then >>>> Dave? Good writers that is, worthy of note. >>>> >>>> Roger >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Bircumshaw" >>>> <[log in to unmask]> >>>> To: <[log in to unmask]> >>>> Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2008 9:11 AM >>>> Subject: New beats (???) >>>> >>>> >>>>> Here's an example of the predominant current middle-class narrative of >>>>> poetry in Britain . >>>>> >>>>> http://books.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,,2281914,00.html >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> David Bircumshaw >>>>> Website and A Chide's Alphabet >>>>> http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/ >>>>> The Animal Subsides http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html >>>>> Leicester Poetry Society: http://www.poetryleicester.co.uk >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> David Bircumshaw >>> Website and A Chide's Alphabet >>> http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/ >>> The Animal Subsides http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html >>> Leicester Poetry Society: http://www.poetryleicester.co.uk >>> >> > > > > -- > David Bircumshaw > Website and A Chide's Alphabet http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/ > The Animal Subsides http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html > Leicester Poetry Society: http://www.poetryleicester.co.uk > -- David Bircumshaw Website and A Chide's Alphabet http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/ The Animal Subsides http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html Leicester Poetry Society: http://www.poetryleicester.co.uk