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Well to me the epitome of what has been thought natural is summed up in this small quotation from Hobbes "Whatsoever therefore is consequent to a time of war, where every man is enemy to every man, the same consequent to the time wherein men live without other security than what their own strength and their own invention shall furnish them withal. In such condition there is no place for industry, because the fruit thereof is uncertain: and consequently no culture of the earth; no navigation, nor use of the commodities that may be imported by sea; no commodious building; no instruments of moving and removing such things as require much force; no knowledge of the face of the earth; no account of time; no arts; no letters; no society; and which is worst of all, continual fear, and danger of violent death; and the life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short." Essentially I believe that the only natural rights are those you have managed to grasp for yourself in the face of opposition. Hobbes is writ large everywhere, if you doubt it look to your own academic communities and the dog eat dog world that even this list iterates, for those of us who post here have of necessity got the wherewithall to maintain an email account or live somewhere where we can post from without fear of the consequences. How does Hobbes pertain to the Olympics in China, just ask yourselves, is that natural? We don't have to let the torch go by to realise we are all participant in that oppression and actually have little choice about it, for what is it to be free in reality? Can we ever be free without putting someone else into relative oppression. We want our consumer goods, so do the Chinese and we don't care in the meantime if that leads to cockle pickers dying on a beach in Morecombe. Larry (who let the evil genie out of the bottle to write that) > -----Original Message----- > From: The Disability-Research Discussion List > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Harvey Cowe > Sent: 29 April 2008 17:33 > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Ideas that have been seen as natural > > In his book ' Status anxiety' Botton lists a number of ideas > that have, over the course of history, been thought of as > natural. For example. > > 'The real fact is that man in the beginning was ordained to > to rule over > women: and this is an eternal decree which we have no right > and no power to alter' Earl Percy (1873) > > 'As a race the Africanis inferior to the white man; > subordination to the white man is his normal condition > therefore our system which regards the African as an > inferior, rests upon a great law of nature' Alexander > Stevens (1861) p213 > > I'm just wondering whether anyone can suggest a comparable > quote about disabled people. > > Thank you > > ________________End of message________________ > > This Disability-Research Discussion list is managed by the > Centre for Disability Studies at the University of Leeds > (www.leeds.ac.uk/disability-studies). > Enquiries about list administration should be sent to > [log in to unmask] > > Archives and tools are located at: > www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/disability-research.html > You can VIEW, POST, JOIN and LEAVE the list by logging in to > this web page. > > ________________End of message________________ This Disability-Research Discussion list is managed by the Centre for Disability Studies at the University of Leeds (www.leeds.ac.uk/disability-studies). Enquiries about list administration should be sent to [log in to unmask] Archives and tools are located at: www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/disability-research.html You can VIEW, POST, JOIN and LEAVE the list by logging in to this web page.