Jon I would like to respond to your points about Guyon
and angels as I raised this topic at Kalamazoo a few
years ago. It is helpful I have found to see at least
an aspect of Spenser's angel in Augustinian terms as
the delivery of the Word. Interpreting the Bible
through spiritual exegesis was the role the "angel"
Ambrose, in the tradition of Paul, played for
Augustine in the Confessions. Seeing the Scriptures
spiritually in turn led to Augustine's own conversion.
Guyon's Palmer and so Guyon are in this sense being
called back to the Word by the angel. My own position
here is that the angel is both very Christian and very
Protestant and appears to point the distinction
between material or carnal and spiritual
understanding, a distinction that arises naturally in
relation to a descent into a cave of mammon.
The relationship between classical ethics in their
varied forms and Christian theology in its varied
forms is just intrinsically problematic and continued
to be so into the renaissance. There are some better
fits between some aspects of some processes of
combination of the two than others. Spenser I would
argue is deliberately foregrounding many of the
attempts to combine the two and deliberately revealing
some of the uncomfortable joins (as in badly put
together sewing - hope this works in American
English). Classical approaches to ethics as others
have long pointed out are clearly problematic
theologically as soon as they are associated with
presumption. Aquinas made humility into an aspect of
Christian temperance and humility (in the sense of
dependence on grace) is the theological ingredient
Spenser is introducing to his mosaic of temperance in
the moment of Guyon's faint.
--- [log in to unmask] wrote:
>
>
> This has been an interesting thread, and bringing
> Guyon into the picture raises a number of questions.
> I have been looking into Guyon's encounter with
> Mammon and pondering the significance of his
> unconscious state. Does the question of "election"
> come into play in II viii? It depends on how you
> construe the similarities and differences between
> Redcrosse and Guyon. How are their two races
> "like," and how unlike? As I typed that question, I
> heard the possible pun for the first time: "race"
> refers to the narrative lines of Books I and II
> (aligned with the Sun and the Moon if you follow
> Alastair Fowler's reading of "like race to run" and
> imagery and incidents throughout the Books), and
> doesn't "race" also allude to the differences
> between human heroes and faeries?
>
>
> Guyon's angel is not entirely (or not at all
> specifically) a Christian guardian angel. In viii
> 8, he turns responsibility for Guyon's protection
> from the "euill" that is near at hand over to the
> Palmer, saying "Yet will I not forgoe, ne yet
> forgett / The care thereof my selfe vnto the end, /
> But euermore him succour, and defend / Against his
> foe and mine." What does "euermore" mean here? And
> "vnto the end"? In his Three Books on Life, Ficino
> has a good deal to say about "supernal" guardians
> such as this angel, and I take it that their concern
> is focused upon the good health, worldly success,
> happiness, and long lives of the individuals in
> their care. I don't for a minute subscribe to a
> reading of Book II that renders it entirely secular
> in its content; Biblical allusions and Christian
> content will be found in many places. I haven't
> found a way to fit the Christian and the classical
> frames of reference together: maybe they aren't
> supposed to fit.
>
>
> The Palmer's reactions to Guyon's angel are
> instructive: first he is captivated by the "wondrous
> beauty" of this "faire young man," then he is
> rendered speechless "Through fear and wonder," then,
> "his slow eies beguiled of their sight, / [he] Woxe
> sore affraid." By the end of the canto, when Guyon
> comes out of his trance, he describes Prince
> Arthur's exploits and says nothing at all about the
> angel. Terry Krier has some fine things to say
> about the angel (compared to Belphoebe, who also
> enters Book II and remains unknown to Guyon) in
> Gazing on Secret Sights.
>
>
> Cheers, Jon Quitslund -------------- Original
> message from Kathryn Walls
> <[log in to unmask]>: --------------
>
>
> > The fact that, in II.viii, Guyon is unconscious of
> the angel, supports
> > Paul Suttie's point. The angel's visitation shows
> that he is one of the
> > elect, but his unconsciousness of it shows that he
> has not yet
> > experienced conversion. Cf. Hugh MacLachlan's
> article, "The Death of
> > Guyon" in Spenser Studies 1983.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Sidney-Spenser Discussion List
> > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf
> Of Paul Suttie
> > Sent: Saturday, 5 April 2008 10:56 p.m.
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: Redcrosse's call
> >
> > I agree that these are very important questions
> for the interpretation
> > of
> > Book One, but I think (especially given the
> dominant position of
> > Calvinism
> > in Elizabethan salvation theology) that we need to
> distinguish carefully
> >
> > between RC's election and his conversion. All
> those who are to be saved
> > in
> > the end are elect from the beginning; but the
> elect live as sinners
> > until
> > they experience conversion and the start of the
> process of regeneration.
> > So
> > it wouldn't make sense to suggest that RC becomes
> one of the elect at
> > any
> > point in the story other than 'before the
> beginning', but it is a
> > salient
> > question to ask when in his story he experiences
> conversion and begins
> > to
> > live as one of the faithful. I have a chapter on
> this in my book
> > "Self-Interpretation in The Faerie Queene"
> (Boydell and Brewer, 2006) in
> >
> > which I discuss Gless's interpretation and others.
> In a nutshell, I
> > think
> > that the different possible moments of conversion
> identified by Gless
> > are
> > not due to vagueness on Spenser's part or a desire
> to let the reader
> > decide
> > but are a very specific representation of the
> different models of
> > salvation
> > offered by Roman Catholic and Protestant theology,
> and that the former
> > is
> > represented as a false version of Christianity,
> the latter as the truth.
> > In
> > more concrete terms, Redcross complacently regards
> himself from the
> > beginning of the story as one of the faithful, but
> doesn't experience
> > true
> > (=Protestant) conversion until he comes to the
> gates of despair in canto
> > 9,
> > where he is made to see the vanity of his own
> works and that the one and
> >
> > only thing that can truly save him is the fact of
> having been chosen for
> >
> > salvation by God ("Why shouldst thou then despair,
> that chosen art?").
> > The
> > moment of conversion consists in receiving a true
> and lively faith in
> > God's
> > having elected him for salvation from the
> beginning. Up till that point,
> >
> > all his supposed 'faith' is actually mere
> self-righteousness, the most
> > dangerous form of spiritual pride.
> >
> > Paul Suttie
> >
> >
> > On Apr 4 2008, Reid Robert L. wrote:
> >
> > >Darryl Gless suggests locating "the all-important
> divine call before
> > the
> > >beginning of RCK's quest, or at the moment when
> Arthur rescues him from
> > >Orgoglio's prison, or at the end of canto ix when
> he seems consciously
> > >to accept the doctrine of predestined election"
> (Interpretation &
> > >Theology in Sp. 145). Gless's reference to
> "Readers who accept the
> > >knight's armor as prima facie evidence of his
> prior election and
> > >calling" (55) recalls Padelford's comment on the
> tall clownish young
> > man
> > >who, "when clad in the armor of a Christian man,
> 'seemed the goodliest
> > >man in al that company,' so recreated was he by
> the grace of God." When
> > >does RC receive his call?Abandoning Una (& thus
> his faith, however
> > >"immature or untried") assumes an earlier call.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >Jim Broaddus' questioning the precise timing of
> the "call" seems
> > >important, and Darryl Gless's nice list of
> options recalls other
> > >repetitious features of the moral/religious
> allegory (why do
> > allegorical
> > >figures of "pride" reappear so persistently, yet
> in such intriguingly
> > >varied forms?). The question of when the clownish
> hero was "called"
> > >might be connected with the Reformation's
> much-debated question of when
> > >to be "baptized" (before, or during, the
> conscious
=== message truncated ===
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