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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture From: jbugslag <[log in to unmask]> > Recent scholarship on Abbot Suger and his works at Saint-Denis have increasingly been transferring the intellectual sophistication of his writings and the iconography of his stained glass from Saint-Denis, and Suger himself, to Hugh of St Victor. Did the "school" of St Victor accept outside students, or was it associated with the "University of Paris" at that time? my (very limited) understanding is that there weren't no U.P. at that time --it was a Work in Progress, as it were. there were Masters associated in various capacities with the cathedral and, as has been mentioned, "schools" at St. Victor's and St. Genevieve's (and, come to think of it, why not at St. Germain-des-Pres? or, for that matter, at the Marmoutierean priory of St. Martin des Champs??). >It would seem in some respects to have been a likely alternative to Saint-Denis in the education of a royal son. my "feeling" is that St. Victor's would have been something of a "graduate school," specializing in exegetical and speculative theology. but that opinion is almost totally unencumbered by any actual knowledge of the situation. Grover? whether or not that's true, there would have been political circumstances which might have removed St. Victor's from consideration. although, technically, a Royal foundation and certainly the recipient of more than a few gifts from Louis VI. but it was also HotBed Central of the Reform Movement, at least that which was aimed at the "secular" canons of cathedral chapters and collegial abbeys. the King owned quite a few of the latter (which is how Henry, Louis the Kid's kid brother got his jobs as abbots) and the King pretty much controled the chapters of cathedrals within the "Royal Domain" [which, btw, is one way to define the R.D. itself, by the places where he had that power] including, most particularly, Orleans and Paris, the former in the ancient Capetian Heartland, the latter increasing in importance as it was evolving into a "capital" city. in the late 1120s and early '30s the Reformers were excessively active, first at Paris, then at Orleans. this was Serious Business, because the cathedrals and their chapters were Power Centers, sources of revenue (e.g., the "annates" during episcopal vacancies) and patronage (e.g., a jobs program for the sons of loyal vassals). there were Reform partisans within the chapters and, ocassionally, even among the Bishops --Stephen of Senlis at Paris being the most notable, and a vocal supporter of St. Victor's (he was buried there, i believe). against those guys were ranked the King and most of the members of the chapters, fellows like Stephen of Garland, the King's chancellor and an archdeacon of both Orleans and Paris (as well as other benefices). "Reform" was not a peaceful process, and things got pretty Hot. in '27 or '8 Stephen of Senlis' retinue was ambushed on the road and the Prior of St. Victor was murdered, dying (it is said) in Stephen's arms. a year or three later an archdeacon of Orleans was killed. serious business. Louis VI and his Queen went so far as to take a solemn oath in St. Mary's of Paris to the effect that they would *never* allow the chapter there to be Reformed. no love lost between Louis and St. Victor, seems to me. though, as i say, he continued to "patronize" the abbey. but that's just one of the many inexplicable conundrums and contradictions which make studing them danged middlevils so interesting, i guess. c > On 9 Apr 2008 at 10:33, Christopher Crockett wrote: > > > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and > > culture > > > > From: Andrew Larsen <[log in to unmask]> > > > > > Well, the cathedral school was the center of a growing body of > > > scholars that > > would in a few generations coalesce into the University of Paris. > > Some of the brightest scholars in Paris, such as Abelard, taught under > > the umbrella of the cathedral school (although Abelard was gone by > > 1131). > > > > "under the umbrella" > > > > do we know anything more about his teaching during that pre-rainstormy > > period than what he tells us in the H.C.? [Brenda?] > > > > viz., that he was a *private tutor* to the adolescent daughter of a > > dignatary of the cathedral chapter. > > > > Louis the Kid was...well, he was just a kid before his brother died > > and he was jerked out of whatever situation he was in, being prepared > > for whatever career he was destined for before Destiny took a Hand in > > his life and grabbed him by his hair. > > > > Heloise was, presumably, somewhat older when tutored (and etc.) by > > Abelard, and i can't quite see him (or the other, relatively > > high-powered scholards of the cathedral school) as being an elementary > > school teacher. > > > > *was* there a "grammer school" (in the sense of a primary school for > > quite young children) associated with the cathedral? > > > > >Overall, Louis could have received a more cutting-edge education > > >through the > > cathedral > > school, although it would have depended on who his masters were. > > > > it's not the "higher" education that's at issue, only the "primary" > > one. > > > > >Did St. Denis maintain a monastery school at this time? > > > > i don't know. > > > > >I don't know, but many monasteries were doing away with schools for > > >children > > because > > oblation was becoming less common during this period. > > > > knowing nothing whatever about it in any detail, i can venture the > > Firm Opinion that "this period" was one of Transition, and that it > > might be a wee bit early to assume that the Benedictines at St. Denis > > (or anywhere else) had given up their centuries-old tradition of > > providing primary educations for the sons of the local aristocracy. > > (what's the evidence that those guys *ever* gave up their primary > > schools, in the M.A.?) > > > > after all, > > > > 1) providing this service certainly paid well, both Karmically (i.e., > > putting a keen edge on their Do Good for Humanity blade) and in more > > tangible terms, garnering donations from families which formed ties to > > the institution lasting generations, Time out of Mind; > > > > b)such a school would have been a pretty good recruitment tool; > > > > iii) Suger was (i'm told, presumably ultimately based on a Vita) > > educated at the St. Denis school, just a generation before Louis' > > time. > > > > >Apart from the cathedral school, the other two 12th century schools > > >at Paris > > that I know of were St Victor and St Genevieve, and I haven't been > > able to find any reference to a school at St Denis in the materials I > > have at hand about the University of Paris. > > > > well, the St. Denis school wouldn't have been part of that particular > > development, would it? > > > > certainly not in the same way that St. Victor's was (i know not from > > St. Genevieve). > > > > can't we assume that St. D.'s would have been a dull-edged, quite > > traditionally-based institution, specializing in the most primary of > > educations? > > > > the kids would graduate and go to the Big City, for the advanced > > stuff. > > > > >Assuming it did have a monastery school, Philip might have worried > > >that > > sending Louis to St. Denis might have been mistaken as oblation. > > > > that's a thought. > > > > it could certainly have been a temptation --esp. considering that > > Louis seems to have been of a rather pious Disposition anyway. > > > > Louis is not my Real Interest --his younger brother, Henry, is. > > > > and he succumbed (in the end) to the Temptations of Monasticism, Big > > Time. > > > > on Philip's death, Henry took (what was apparently) Louis' place as > > Family Cleric, accumulating, through the '30s and '40s, quite a few > > abbacies in the _abbas regalium abbatiarum_ (the royal collegials at > > Etampes, Melun, Corbeil, etc., directly under the King's thumb) and > > numerious prebends and dignities in various other institutions of > > political significance (e.g., canon of Paris, Treasurer of St. Martin > > of Tours). > > > > he apparently led a life befitting a Prince in the Church, until he > > ran into St. Bernie in 1146 and was "converted", becomming a simple > > monk at Clairvaux. > > > > >(In England two decades earlier, there was a fierce debate over > > >whether Henry > > I's intended bride, Edith, had been veiled as a nun or whether she was > > simply placed at a convent as a boarding house. Edith insisted she > > had not been veiled, but there was clearly uncertainty about what > > might to us seem a very cut and dried issue.) > > > > an interesting case. > > > > it's *so* easy for us to forget how "ad hoc" everything was, and that > > such a seemingly continuous and wet situation could have been > > otherwise. > > > > >Any school St. Denis maintained would have offered a rather > > >traditional sort > > of education, whereas the cathedral school was being to be the place > > where 'professional' education was pursued, since its members went on > > to serve as bureaucrats, lawyers, and theologians. > Philip may have > > felt that Louis would get a more intellectually-challenging education > > at the cathedral school, although that's a rather modern way to think > > about the situation, and to my mind a less likely explanation than > > that there simply wasn't a school at St Denis. > > > > > > again, i have little problem with his going to "high school" at the > > cathedral --it's just the "grammar school" work that concerns me. > > > > he was only 10 or 11 when Philip was killed. > > > > apparently nothing is known about Henry's education, save for the fact > > that we have a multi-volume, glossed Bible which was made for him, > > perhaps in a "secular" scriptorium at Chartres, in the 1130s. > > > > he gave them to Clairvaux when he entered, and they are now in the > > dreadfully named "Médiathèque de l'agglomération Troyenne" (formerly > > just the "Bibliotheque municipale"). > > > > these are quite magnificent, absolutely De Lux manuscripts, > > beautifully written and laid out on their white pages, > > > > http://www.culture.gouv.fr/Wave/savimage/enlumine/irht2/IRHT_048354-p. > > jpg > > > > with fine decorations (no real illuminations, alas) > > > > http://www.culture.gouv.fr/Wave/savimage/enlumine/irht2/IRHT_048361-p. > > jpg > > > > http://www.culture.gouv.fr/Wave/savimage/enlumine/irht2/IRHT_048369-p. > > jpg > > > > http://www.culture.gouv.fr/Wave/savimage/enlumine/irht2/IRHT_048374-p. > > jpg > > > > http://www.culture.gouv.fr/Wave/savimage/enlumine/irht2/IRHT_048380-p. > > jpg > > > > this is ms. 0512. > > > > more here: > > > > http://www.enluminures.culture.fr/documentation/enlumine/fr/rechexpert > > e_00.htm > > > > though trying to find the damned thing in that wretched frog db > > interface is challenging. > > > > > > my point is that a Prince would have been given, well, a Princely > > education, from beginning to as far as he wanted to go. > > > > this applied to Henry and it would have applied to Louis. > > > > would this have meant, in its primary phase, the quiet, contemplative > > setting of St. Denis, or the raucus hurly-burly of Centre Ville Paris? > > > > Louis' exact words > > > > "Nos ecclesiam parisiensem, in cujus claustra, quasi in quodam > > maternali gremio, incipientis vitae et pueritiae nostrae exegimus > > tempora" (Rec. des hist. des Gaules, t. XII p. 90) > > > > > > leave the question open, it seems to me --he doesn't actually *say* > > that he was educated at the "cathedral school", just in the > > "claustra", which basically meant in the area around the cathedral. > > > > and, perhaps, at age 10-11 he would have graduated from St. Denis and > > gone UpTown for further study?? > > > > >Those at least are my thoughts. > > > > and, i must say, pretty good ones (since i had most of them myself as > > well). > > > > Thanks, Andrew. > > > > and Brenda. > > > > c > > > > > On 4/8/08 12:49 PM, "Christopher Crockett" <[log in to unmask]> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and > > > > culture > > > > > > > > perhaps someone morebetter equiped than i can answer me a small > > > > riddle. > > > > > > > > the future Louis VII (Junioris) was born in 1121, second son of > > > > Louis VI (Crassus). > > > > > > > > the Recieved Wisdom is that the young Louis was destined for a > > > > career in > > the > > > > (secular) clergy. > > > > > > > > but in 1131 his older brother and co-king with his father, Philip > > > > (named > > after > > > > his grandfather) died in a freak accident** and, shortly > > > > thereafter, Louis > > the > > > > Kid was taken to a council at Reims where he was crowned co-king > > > > by > > Innocent > > > > II (who happened to be conveniently in Northern France at the > > > > time). > > > > > > > > > > > > the author of the best book on his reign, Marcel Pacaut (_Louis > > > > VII et > > son > > > > royaume_. Paris, 1964) cites, as the only evidence that Louis was > > > > destined > > for > > > > the clericature a passage in a charter which he issued in favor of > > > > St. > > Mary of > > > > Paris : "Nos ecclesiam parisiensem, in cujus claustra, quasi in > > > > quodam maternali gremio, incipientis vitae et pueritiae nostrae > > > > exegimus > > tempora" > > > > (Rec. des hist. des Gaules, t. XII p. 90). > > > > > > > > and concludes --rightly, i suppose (does anyone disagree?)-- that > > > > it was > > at > > > > the cathedral school that Louis was being educated. > > > > > > > > my question is: why not at St. Denis? > > > > > > > > political considerations aside (e.g., the King's friend Suger, > > > > himself educated at St. Denis, was abbot there from about 1122; > > > > Fat Louis had > > just > > > > come through several years of rather heated "reforming" disputes > > > > with the Bishop and chapter of St. Mary's, which nearly resulted > > > > in a near-civil > > war), > > > > would not an ancient Benedictine house offer a better education to > > > > a > > young > > > > prince, certainly on the Primary level?? > > > > > > > > > > > > could it have been that Fat Louis wanted his second son to get > > > > some > > educating, > > > > but not *too* much --and certainly not so much that he would want > > > > to > > become a > > > > monk (rather than a secular canon/archdeacon/abbot of the "royal > > monasteries" > > > > like his younger brother, Henry, who suceeded him in that role)? > > > > > > > > (that latter, off-the-top-of-my-head thought probably approaches > > > > unanswerability, so can just be ignored.) > > > > > > > > any thoughts would be appreciated. > > > > > > > > best, > > > > > > > > c > > > > > > > > **he was riding through a street in (or near)Paris, when a pig > > > > suddenly appeared, freightening the animal and causing it to throw > > > > the young prince > > and > > > > crush him. > > > > at least one source (Ordericus?) notes that the obviously > > > > diabolical pig > > was > > > > "black" and immediately ran off and disappeared into the Seine. > > > > > > > > ****************************************************************** > > > > **** To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion > > > > YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the > > > > list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the > > > > list, send the message: leave medieval-religion to: > > > > [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact > > > > the list's owners, write to: > > > > [log in to unmask] For further information, > > > > visit our web site: > > > > http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html > > > > > > ******************************************************************** > > > ** To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR > > > NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, > > > address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, > > > send the message: leave medieval-religion to: > > > [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact > > > the list's owners, write to: > > > [log in to unmask] For further information, > > > visit our web site: > > > http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html > > > > > ********************************************************************** > > To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME > > to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it > > to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the > > message: leave medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order > > to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: > > [log in to unmask] For further information, > > visit our web site: > > http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html > > > > ********************************************************************** > To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME > to: [log in to unmask] > To send a message to the list, address it to: > [log in to unmask] > To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion > to: [log in to unmask] > In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: > [log in to unmask] > For further information, visit our web site: > http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html > ********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html