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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture I wonder Why the hypothesis of _true_ relics, i.e. genuine, if not miraculous, would be so harshly discussed? In fact, we have two different questions: the age of relics : they cannot be so old; their authenticity, we cannot prove (and the testimonies are, in their turn, so old -- and so well-known -- that everyone, since the beginning, can be in his way to forge fakes. Wouldn't it be, anyway, the *most economic solution* ? we have "true" relics known since a millenary (the shrine of Mary in Chartres, with pieces of cloth coming from Louis the Pious and Theodora (if I remember well); those linen and silk pieces are 12 centuries old; why the shrine of Chartres wouldn't be, in its turn, eight centuries older ? Coming from Mary in an another question. Is there any suspicion about the Boethius' grave ? This, beeing not even a question of faith, such beyond these things, but of logic; we know the more holistic an answer, perhaps the better... -- et je retourne à mes copies! amitiés, Denis Christopher Crockett a écrit : > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture > > From: Henk 't Jong <[log in to unmask]> > > >> I still could come up with lots of arguments why these remains could well >> > be > a fraud, though. > > no doubt, with your Level of Faith in the Religion of Science, you could, H. > > > but those arugments would have to (presumably) accept that > > 1) The Padova skeleton, of an elderly man with arthritis, was carbon-dated to > between mid-1st and early 4th c.; > > b) DNA from the teeth shows he was very probably from Syria; > > iii) the missing skull was matched with the reputed skull of St Luke preserved > in Prague (but not St Luke's other skull, brought to Rome from Constantinople > in the time of Gregory the Great, now dated 5th-6th c.). > > D) The leaden casket is the original burial container; > > IV) its decoration is typically 1st-2nd c.; > > 5) pollen inside it included pollen from Greece; > > f) carbon dating of small animal remains in the casket revealed that it had > been in the Padova area since the 5th or 6th c., earlier, in fact, than the > associated literary traditions. > > vii) The casket fits perfectly into the pagan marble sarcophagus, reworked in > the 2nd c., associated with St Luke in Thebes in Boeotia, the traditional > place of his death (a theory is that it may have been removed from there in > the time of Julian the Apostate). > > XCIX) And so on. > > > none of which, of course, obiates the possibility of "fraud." > > a very, very elaborate "fraud," perpetrated (at the latest) in the 5th or 6th > c. > > most probably the work of the same 14th c. guys in Champagne who "painted" the > Turin Artifact --the M.O. is certainly the same, so Q.E.D. on that one... > > "All in all, the results of the most extensive scientific tests available > today, and a thorough review of the historical documentation, were consistent > with the skeleton being actually that of St Luke , in which case historians > inclined to automatic skepticism about ancient relics (I hang my head) must > think again." > > "consistent" being the Operative Word, there. > > >> Furthermore: even science asks for some kind of belief in its results, >> > > yes. > > yes, it does. > > as the contraversy around the Turin Artifact demonstrates quite adequately > (i.e., reading the interpretors of the "scientific" stuff is every bit as > enlightening as reading the "shroudie" stuff). > > >> so if you want to believe they are Luke's relics it helps. >> > > helps *what*, eggsactly? > > >> But I might as well talk to a brick wall, I presume. >> > > sounds like someone who doubts the results of the C-14 testing. > > carful, there, H., lest you Lapse into Heresy and be Excommunicated from the > Church of Science. > > next you'll find yourself doubting the C-14 testing which "proves" that the > Turin Artifact is a 14th c. Northern French Painting. > > >> PS I don't read Italian. >> > > Oh, *that's* a Good Excuse. > > Te Resolvimus. > > Pox. > > c > > ********************************************************************** > To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME > to: [log in to unmask] > To send a message to the list, address it to: > [log in to unmask] > To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion > to: [log in to unmask] > In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: > [log in to unmask] > For further information, visit our web site: > http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html > > > > -- *********************** Ya que'qu'chos'qui cloch'la-d'dans, J'y retourne immédiat'ment. *********************** Denis Hüe, professeur de langue et littérature françaises du Moyen Âge responsable du Master Lettres Langues Communication Centre d'Etude des Textes Médiévaux, (CETM-CELAM) Université de Haute Bretagne http://www.uhb.fr/alc/medieval ********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html