medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Tom is of course right, and the diocese of Lincoln was often 'cut down to size': the see of Ely in the ec12; sees of Oxford and Peterborough in the C16, and the see of St Albans (I believe) in the C19 all took chunks of a diocese the size of a small country. I believe bits of the see of Southwell were also once in Lincoln.
As Edwards makes clear, some bishops were not even members of chapter...
> Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 11:57:32 -0400
> From: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [M-R] Sufragan Bishops
> To: [log in to unmask]
>
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
>
> I believe that the size of a diocese like Lincoln made administration even
> more difficult. That may be why new sees were created after the
> Reformation. Thus Bristol & Gloucester, among others.
>
> The following book made me wonder how closely a bishop was involved with
> his cathedral day to day:
>
> The English secular cathedrals in the Middle Ages:
> a constitutional study with special reference to the fourteenth century.
> Kathleen Edwards
> 1967 2nd ed.
> English Book Book xx, 412 p. front. 4 plates (incl. facsim.), tables. 23 cm.
> Manchester, Manchester U.P.; New YOrk, Barnes & Noble,
>
> Tom Izbicki
>
> > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
> >
> >
> > A fascinating clarification, Rosemary. Thank you.
> >
> > The subject would indeed make an excellent project: part of the even wider
> > one of how bishops organised and funded their households/administration,
> > and the relationship between these men and the chapters of cathedrals. I
> > find the question especially intriguing at the monastic cathedrals, where
> > almost all episcopal work must have taken place almost entirely
> > independent of the monks. The bishop's households at these cathedrals must
> > have been large and complex communities of Churchmen: yet as far as I can
> > see this never made them aspire to any institutional collegiately of their
> > own (unless anyone knows different...) Perhaps there is some useful
> > information in Hamilton Thompson. Must have a look...
> >
> > Jon
> >
> >
> > Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 11:23:39 +0000From:
> > [log in to unmask]: Re: [M-R] Sufragan BishopsTo:
> > [log in to unmask]: Scholarly discussions
> > of medieval religion and culture
> >
> >
> > My own studies of English bishops (which includes noticing rather than
> > concentrating on their suffragans) suggests that while it was quite common
> > for them to give benefices to their suffragans, it was rare for these
> > benefices to be as important and wealthy as the prebends and
> > archdeaconries. I think this may be explained by sensitivity to the fact
> > that most of the suffragans were friars and, therefore, should not be
> > reaping rich rewards from spiritual duties but I suppose, if one took that
> > argument to its logical conclusion, they should not have received any
> > benefices. Bishop Alnwick of Norwich used a Franciscan Robert Ryngman,
> > bishop Gradensis, throughout his Norwich episcopate (1426-37: but only
> > when he was unable to act himself) and does not seem to have showered him
> > with rewards; he used William Gunwardby, bishop of Dunkeld (and there are
> > other instances of Scottish bishops cited in HBC) while bishop of Lincoln
> > (1437-49) and rewarded him with the vicarage of Cople, Bedfordshire. -
> > Perhaps the latter was possible because Gunwardby was secular? Or it may
> > be that Ryngman was given something in Norwich by Alnwick's predecessor,
> > Wakeryng who certainly also used him but I am afraid I do not have any
> > references. In 1491 Bishop Hill of London collated a benefice on the
> > resignation of one James, late bishop of ???Daren' (sorry, I cannot be
> > sure - it may be one of the Irish bishoprics), who was to be given a
> > pension, which implies that Hill's predecessor had given the bishop the
> > benefice.
> >
> > As ever, I would also recommend that old standby Alexander Hamilton
> > Thompson, 1873-1952. The English clergy and their organization in the
> > later middle ages. The Ford Lectures for 1933. Oxford, 1947. - it has
> > several pages on suffragans
> >
> > It looks like there is much more research to be done through the episcopal
> > registers - maybe a major project for someone?
> >
> > I am working on Bishop Hill and Bishop John Hales of Coventry and
> > Lichfield for the ODNB and have some queries I hope you can all help me
> > with - watch this space!
> >
> > Rosemary Hayes
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Jon Cannon
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2008 10:39 PM
> > Subject: Re: [M-R] Sufragan Bishops
> > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
> >
> > Excellent refs for me, too, Rosemary - thank you. John - I believe I have
> > just got hold of the right end of the stick (my own stick being a rather
> > thick short plank), and having done so could clarify what may be useful to
> > you from what I sent you. I noted in my list that suffragans had a range
> > of titular sees, and sometimes worked for more than one bishop, though
> > neither are at the nub of your interest. But I also noted one example of a
> > suffragan with an English preferment, which is I think more what you are
> > after - though in this it was not an archdeaconry, rather it was nothing
> > less than a bishopric: - Carlisle. In this case there were very specific
> > political circumstances behind the appointment. Interesting, all the same.
> > I didn't note anyone who had other English titles, but I have to say this
> > feature - which I now belatedly realise is what you are most interested in
> > - would not have been picked up by me because it doesn't particularly
> > suprise me. Surely archdeaconries or other titles might be handed out by a
> > bishop seeking to bolster either the role, or the standing, or (if a
> > prebend came with them, as was sometimes the case) the income of anyone
> > particularly crucial to his administration or his familia? I wonder if
> > Suffragans might even yet prove tobe a particularly common example of
> > this, if they had no income from their titular see. Indeed (not quite the
> > same point I know), some archdeaconries - Kent, Richmond come to mind -
> > were associated with high standing and a kind of quasi-episcopal power in
> > and of themselves. In other words, in certain circumstances it seems to
> > me to be quite a normal medieval practise to give such posts to a
> > suffragan, vicar-general or suchlike. I wonder if it was in fact quiet
> > common, just rarely noted. Jon
> > ********************************************************************** To
> > join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME to:
> > [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to:
> > [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message:
> > leave medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report
> > problems or to contact the list's owners, write to:
> > [log in to unmask] For further information, visit
> > our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html
> > ********************************************************************** To
> > join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME to:
> > [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to:
> > [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message:
> > leave medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report
> > problems or to contact the list's owners, write to:
> > [log in to unmask] For further information, visit
> > our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html
> > **********************************************************************
> > To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME
> > to: [log in to unmask]
> > To send a message to the list, address it to:
> > [log in to unmask]
> > To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion
> > to: [log in to unmask]
> > In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to:
> > [log in to unmask]
> > For further information, visit our web site:
> > http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html
> >
>
> **********************************************************************
> To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME
> to: [log in to unmask]
> To send a message to the list, address it to:
> [log in to unmask]
> To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion
> to: [log in to unmask]
> In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to:
> [log in to unmask]
> For further information, visit our web site:
> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html
**********************************************************************
To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME
to: [log in to unmask]
To send a message to the list, address it to:
[log in to unmask]
To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion
to: [log in to unmask]
In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to:
[log in to unmask]
For further information, visit our web site:
http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html