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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture Dear Henk, On Saturday, March 29, 2008, at 4:20 am, you wrote: > I know the Turin connection is late, but that's not the main point Rochelle > makes. You quoted _two_ paragraphs from Rochelle, of which the second was this: > >I am familiar with the English cycles -- and I know that there were > cycles performed on the continent, but I do not know if a record of > cycles performed in Turin exists. Anyone out here know anything > about touring or guild cycles in Italy back then? Forgive me for thinking a) that your adducing of this matter was intentional and b) that when you prefaced your entire quote with the query > Why doesn't anybody take this up? you were not asking why Rochelle's first paragraph had not received a response but rather why her question, posed as it was at the end of the matter you chose to quote, had not received a response. The first paragraph, enunciating what you now characterize as Rochelle's "main point", was: > >I did try to draw attention to the flat head join -- (hint, hint). > The shroud far too closely resembles a "flat." It would have stood > draped across a support on one of the portable platforms during the > appropriate place in a mystery cycle. You would need both sides for > such a display; but you would NOT want a space at the head. To which you respond: > It is the 'flat head join' I find stimulating to think about. It is > indeed very much like a folded cloth 'painted' (perhaps by an early > 14th c > scorch artist?) with a front and back of JC that could have hung suspended > from a crossbar or -pole as a 'gonfanon'. This could have been a theatrical > prop, but also a procession banner, f.i. Don't you guys find this a > stimulating thought? I did and I do. You continue: > Furthermore: it could have had all kinds of geographical connections, > those > kinds of occasions happened everywhere. Indeed. And because those kinds of occasions happened in a great many places, most of whose records are lost or unpublished, finding records with which _convincingly_ to establish an hypothesis that the Shroud originated as a theatrical prop and/or processional banner would be a very tall order. As Rochelle seems to have understood (_vide_ her not unimportant second paragraph), it is only when one begins to localize such an inquiry that the latter has even the remotest chance of being productive. Given that we have no evidence for this object's precise whereabouts prior to the 1350s, the present hypothesis, stimulating though it certainly is, is likely to remain unproven. And that, Henk, may be why others on this list have been unwilling to take up Rochelle's suggestion. Though it would gain credibility were one able to show similar double-imaged (with flat-topped heads) textiles that incontrovertibly _were_ created for one of the purposes proposed (theatrical prop or processional banner). Best again, John Dillon ********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html