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Nick, you do sound exactly like the 'television? That'll never catch on...' guy! ;-) Were you also, briefly, the 'Web? That'll never catch on guy'? Your 'people just want Web sites' argument misses an important point IMHO. Yes, some people just want Web sites. But there's a second and important group of other people who want to build those Web sites for the people in the first group - often by incorporating/mashing up content from elsewhere. Web 2.0, mashups, low costs of hosting, etc., etc. means that the costs of entry for people in the 'second group' are very low (see also Paul's message), meaning that it is growing and increasingly important group. The non-linearity of information flow that Mike talks about comes, in part, from playing with/exposing content to/integrating content from those people in the 'second group'. To echo back to my BBC Education Twitter feed example... it turns out, on further investigation after sending my previous message, that that particular Twitter feed is not generated by the BBC at all, at least, not as far as I can tell. It's generated by someone else - presumably based on a BBC RSS feed somewhere. This kind of blows my argument about the BBC being a good example of an organisation experimenting with Twitter. On the other hand, it endorses the argument that exposing stuff thru simple APIs (RSS in this case) allows interesting things to happen. Do the BBC even know that such a Twitter feed exists? I don't know and, again, I don't much care - but my suspicion is that thru activities like Backstage they do know it is happening and they are very happy to see it happening. To echo back even further... to my complaints a while back on this list about the 'closed' way in which the British Library have chosen to make the digitised Magna Carta available on the Web... yes, for the people in your first group, what the BL have done is absolutely fine. They have given them a Web site to which my mum and dad, and anyone else for that matter, can happily come along and view the Magna Carta online. But for the people in my 'second group' what the BL have chosen to do is absolutely useless. By locking the content away inside a Web-based application and putting a whopping gret "all rights reserved" statement on it, they have prevented anyone else from playing with it. The digitised Magna Carta is freely available on the Web, but not openly available - the two things are very different. The point is that the 'speculative aspect of using Web 2.0' is not just about the museum community experimenting with particular tools but about taking a leap of faith that opening up content on the Web, in terms of APIs, technical standards and licensing, will allow other people to build stuff with it that you and I would never have thought of or been capable of building. Now, what was the original question? Andy -- Head of Development, Eduserv Foundation http://www.eduserv.org.uk/foundation/ http://efoundations.typepad.com/ [log in to unmask] +44 (0)1225 474319 > -----Original Message----- > From: Museums Computer Group [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On > Behalf Of Nick Poole > Sent: 27 March 2008 12:49 > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: The speculative aspect of using Web 2 [was: > British Postal Museum & Archive Wiki] > > Mike, > > Thanks for this. I want to check something though, to do with > your assertion: > > > More importantly we're also *still* (after all these years...) > > thinking in terms of "a flowable, understandable, linear user > > experience" through "our website". This is NOT (repeat...) > how the web works any more. > > At the risk of sounding like the 'television? That'll never > catch on...' guy - I'm really not sure I agree with you. > > Up there at the bleeding edge of where the Web goes next > there is an almost axiomatic mantra (non-linear, fragmented, > participative). For real, non-technologist users who are > seeking information or entertainment, all this non-linearity > is frankly a bit annoying - for every tech guru I've met who > says that UGC is the future of media, I meet someone over the > age of 35 who finds it a bit irksome that all these websites > are suddenly asking them to write stuff for them. > > People *do* want websites - because we have a consumer > population that are used to information being packaged and > presented, and they are used to making qualitative decisions > about the value of that information based on brand and credibility. > > I am a bit concerned that these developments are really being > pushed by technology - it's almost as if we said 'ok, we've > separated content from presentation, we've got stuff in > repositories, we've done some interoperability stuff. > So...er..now what? I know! We can mash it all together to > create new things, which aren't websites, but which are a bit > like them, only different.' > > Of course, there is a younger demographic who are Bebo-ing > themselves silly, but they'll grow up and there is always the > possibility that they'll grow out of it. I *really* don't > want to sit on enthusiasm and innovation, and I completely > accept the 'speculative can lead to longer-term' argument > which Tehmina puts forward but how do we distinguish real, > permanent seismic shifts in the nature of the Web and online > consumers from the short-term whorls and eddies of fashion? > > I am sick of my Facebook, I haven't been back to my MySpace > in weeks, my Bebo account is almost dead, I've got at least 4 > moribund blogs and every time I post a comment on a Wiki I > get flamed by an American teenager. Is this really the brave > new world we want to build? > > Nick > > > > Nick Poole > Chief Executive > MDA > > www.mda.org.uk > www.collectionslink.org.uk > > > > Tel: 01223 316028 > Fax: 01223 364658 > > MDA (Europe) Ltd: Company Registration No: 1300565 Reg. > Office: 22 Hills Road, Cambridge, CB2 1JP. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Museums Computer Group [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On > Behalf Of electronic museum > Sent: 27 March 2008 12:31 > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: The speculative aspect of using Web 2 [was: > British Postal Museum & Archive Wiki] > > Oof. So much to respond to and so little time. > > In brief..I think we're in danger of making some fairly > classic museum type generalisations, about "what people want" > "what they need" "what they might want if we showed it to them".. > > More importantly we're also *still* (after all these > years...) thinking in terms of "a flowable, understandable, > linear user experience" through "our website". This is NOT > (repeat...) how the web works any more. I'm not sure it ever > was, tbh, and that's why we (as a sector) have often found > ourselves building things which ought to be popular, but > aren't. It's also why some of the things we didn't expect to > be popular actually turned out to be huge! > > Let's take Twitter as one example in a field of hundreds. > Mode of use is probably NOT "hey, a museum on Twitter, I'll > follow it". Mode of use probably IS "I've seen something > interesting which HAPPENS to be on a museum website and I'll > post it to Twitter...". Result - clicks, visibility - a good > thing at least as far as funders are concerned. <insert > argument here /> > > People are fickle; the web is loosely coupled; users get > whatever it is they're looking for (and some things they > didn't know they were looking for) wherever they can. A lot > of your traffic IS NOT YOUR AUDIENCE but PEOPLE WHO HAPPENED > UPON YOUR STUFF. > > So what does this mean to development of services? > Predictably, it's complicated. There *has* to be an element > of *push* (or we'd still be rolling out endless damn > catalogues of boring stuff) but at the same time there also > *has* to be an element of user testing, too. > > Here's where I am on this stuff - Groundhog day-like I notice > I posted it following a similar MCG thread... > http://tinyurl.com/yvpgmx :-) ta! > > Mike > > > On Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 12:02 PM, Tehmina Goskar > <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > > Thanks, Nick. You are right in many senses. No one wants > to waste money. > > However I very much see many of these things in the same > way as other > > short to medium-term ventures: temporary exhibitions, conferences, > > workshops and other 'events'. For any longer term online > > sustainability and visibility I can't think of any better way to > > achieve this than to invest properly in well-described > > collections-based and subject-based information that is > well designed > > and detectable. > > > > Perhaps therefore we also need to add longevity aims to > this equation? A > > sandbox sounds interesting though I wonder if some may > prefer just to > > go for it? I have no opinion on this either way but I feel very > > strongly that the more people exchange their experiences, > the better > > informed others will be. > > No project is directly transferrable but lessons learnt > certainly are. > > > > As for twitter specifically, I don't use it as I don't want to tell > > people what I am doing every few moments (though it is all > extremely > > interesting of > > course) nor do I wish to know what others are doing. However would > > some event at a museum be well-served with a twitter-esque > application? > > Perhaps > > it would. Therefore such things can also help aid creative problem > > solving at a relatively negligible cost. > > > > And I wonder where the prejudice against the Siliconites > comes from? > > If we look within our own broad community, we all do and think of > > things in different ways, we wouldn't all want to be > thought of in the > > same way, surely? Can we ever say we've reached the > 'wrong' audience > > when doing stuff on the web? > > > > Tehmina > > > > On 27/03/2008, Nick Poole <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > > > > > Tehmina, > > > > > > Thanks for a very interesting and balanced post. I think you are > > > correct > > - > > > there is an element of exploration involved here, which > is obviously > > > an important part of innovation. My concern with these things has > > > always > > been > > > the risk of a large number of museums investing in basically > > unsustainable > > > services which do little to support their core mission. > > > > > > On the subject of Twitter, you ask which museum wouldn't want the > > > brief attention of a million people. Firstly, it is > highly unlikely > > > that of > > this > > > million claimed users, more than a couple of tens of thousands are > > *really* > > > active users (it's the same issue with Second Life's claimed > > population). > > > This really is a niche market, and my answer would be that even a > > million > > > brief viewers is of little use at all if it's the *wrong* > million, > > > or if > > our > > > information is lost in a torrent of in-jokes and Silicon Valley > > > startup party invites. > > > > > > We need to think hard about which problems we are going to try and > > solve, > > > and then identify the best technologies to do so. Imagine > a world in > > which > > > Twitter did not exist (give it a couple of years...) would you > > > really > > invent > > > a constantly-updated trivia machine as the best way of > communicating > > with > > > museum audiences? > > > > > > I'm willing to bet that you wouldn't. > > > > > > Which takes us back to your original proposition - how do museums > > > find > > the > > > time and money to play with innovative/speculative services, even > > > where these don't necessarily resolve to long-term changes in the > > > way we do things? I know that Eduserv were looking at > investing in a > > sandbox/incubator > > > in which museums could muck about with stuff. I think > there is real > > > potential in having a safe 'playground' in which to test these > > propositions > > > before they become live services. Is this something which people > > > would > > find > > > appealing? > > > > > > > > > Nick > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nick Poole > > > Chief Executive > > > MDA > > > > > > www.mda.org.uk > > > www.collectionslink.org.uk > > > > > > > > > > > > Tel: 01223 316028 > > > Fax: 01223 364658 > > > > > > MDA (Europe) Ltd: Company Registration No: 1300565 Reg. > Office: 22 > > > Hills Road, Cambridge, CB2 1JP. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: Museums Computer Group [mailto:[log in to unmask]] > On Behalf > > > Of Tehmina Goskar > > > Sent: 27 March 2008 10:23 > > > To: [log in to unmask] > > > > > > Subject: Re: The speculative aspect of using Web 2 [was: British > > > Postal Museum & Archive Wiki] > > > > > > There is also, of course, the speculative aspect of using web 2 > > > methods > > to > > > either solicit user response or get them to create > information for > > > you > > or > > > spread your information elsewhere. As both Mike and Nick note, > > > every organisation and project has specific needs and > aims and these > > > are the things that should come first. However I wonder if many > > > organisations > > big > > > and small are using social networking tools and related > applications > > > in > > a > > > speculative way - to see what happens. This may result in > > 'interactions' > > > far beyond expectations or more modest ones but certainly quite > > > often unexpected ones. > > > > > > Many of us who have used flickr, for example, have done so with a > > > desire simply to share information with no specific view > on _who_ we > > > should > > share > > > these things with. As an individual, I have done the > same and have > > > been quite surprised at some of the interest in my > photographs, e.g. > > > for a southern American recipe book, for a citizenship > website, for > > > an alternative health documentary, for a popular archaeological > > > textbook... some have also been shared on enthusiasts websites > > > including one on manhole covers. I did not seek any of these > > > outcomes - and certainly did not expect them. Museums > and heritage > > > organisations who do the same will likewise not always > know how such > > > things will turn out. > > > > > > A propos the previous post on the critique of apps such > as twitter, > > > a million people may not be a big number for Oracle or Cisco but > > > which museum online or otherwise would not want a million > people's > > > attention, however brief, on their collections and > information? The > > > technology is also reciprocal. It's not all about what our > > > audiences will get out of it > > but > > > what _we_ can get out of it too. > > > > > > There is, for sure, a horses for courses basic rule to using web > > > applications to increase awareness of your organisation and its > > > information but there is also a speculative aspect which, > it seems > > > to me, is > > important > > > - > > > there is also an element of this to putting on temporary > exhibitions > > > - > > it > > > is > > > not always clear who will be interested in them and results can > > sometimes > > > be > > > surprising. How you weigh up this speculation against time and > > > resource costs is a more difficult matter to resolve. The choice > > > just needs to > > be > > > well-informed. > > > > > > Tehmina > > > > > > > > > > > > On 27/03/2008, Nick Poole <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Rhiannon, > > > > > > > > Many thanks for your email about the BPMA Wiki. I would > be really > > > > interested to know more about why the BPMA took the decision to > > > implement a > > > > Wiki. Is it something your online audience have been > requesting? > > > > Is > > > there a > > > > specific target demographic for whom a Wiki is their preferred > > > > form of interaction? > > > > > > > > The reason I ask is because of your comment about > taking time to > > > > get people on there. Of course, this may simply be the inertia > > > > faced by > > any > > > > fledgling service, but at the same time I am not sure > whether this > > > > is central to your mission or an incidental add-on. > > > > > > > > Not to be too negative about things, but (bearing in mind the > > > > recent exchange between Frankie and Mike) I remain > sceptical about > > > > the appropriateness of models like social networking and > > > > participative > > media > > > to > > > > the delivery of museums online. As Mike notes, there's > no hard and > > fast > > > rule > > > > - it's appropriate when it's appropriate - but I'd be really > > interested > > > to > > > > know whether this is a case of 'because we can' or > whether there > > > > is a genuine audience/marketing driver behind this thing. > > > > > > > > Similarly, I'd be very interested to know more about > the outcomes > > > > of > > > your > > > > dissertation - not just from a quantitative point of view (how > > > > many > > > museums > > > > are doing this), but also from a qualitative one (of those > > > > museums, > > how > > > may > > > > are doing it well, and how many will still be an actively > > > > supported > > > resource > > > > in 2 years time). > > > > > > > > Of course, I see the potential of crowdsourcing > interpretation and > > > > selection, and the Wiki model certainly offers a > potential channel > > > > for people to get at the museums back-end systems, but > I think we > > > > run the > > > risk > > > > of overlooking the very specific psychology and demographics of > > > > User Generated Content, and regarding it as something > appropriate > > > > for a generalist audience. > > > > > > > > Any further info gratefully received! > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > > > Nick > > > > > > > > > > > > Nick Poole > > > > Chief Executive > > > > MDA > > > > > > > > www.mda.org.uk > > > > www.collectionslink.org.uk > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tel: 01223 316028 > > > > Fax: 01223 364658 > > > > > > > > MDA (Europe) Ltd: Company Registration No: 1300565 Reg. > Office: 22 > > > > Hills Road, Cambridge, CB2 1JP. > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Museums Computer Group > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf > > > > Of Rhiannon Looseley > > > > Sent: 26 March 2008 17:43 > > > > To: [log in to unmask] > > > > Subject: British Postal Museum & Archive Wiki > > > > > > > > Dear all > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I thought some of you might be interested in hearing > about the new > > > > British Postal Museum & Archive (BPMA) Wiki: > > > > www.postalheritage.org.uk/wiki. It's based on Zwiki technology > > > > which > > is > > > > Zope/Plone developers' answer to Wiki technology. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's a bit of an experiment and at the moment, unsurprisingly, > > > > it's taking a bit of time to get people on there. I've > started a > > > > few > > 'seeds' > > > > to get people started. At the bottom of this email is > an example > > > > of > > the > > > > email we sent out to our E-Newsletter mailing list to try and > > encourage > > > > people to contribute. It gives you an example of some of the > > > > seeds we're using at the moment. We've created similar > flyers and > > newsletter > > > > articles as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would be interested in hearing any suggestions others > might have > > > > on topics we could use to get people started and also > experiences > > > > of building up a community like this. I'm particularly keen to > > > > find ways of making the most of Wikis' potential for > collaborative work. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also if you're interested, I'm currently writing my MA in Museum > > Studies > > > > Dissertation on Museum Wikis, with ours as a case study. I'm > > > > blogging about my progress at: > > > > http://rhiannonlooseley.blogspot.com if anyone > > is > > > > interested in following my progress. I'd welcome any comments > > > > along > > the > > > > way (please let me know if you specifically don't want > me to quote > > your > > > > comments, either on my blog, or by email, in my dissertation). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best wishes, > > > > > > > > Rhiannon Looseley > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > Rhiannon Looseley > > > > > > > > Web Officer > > > > > > > > Tel: 020 7239 2588 > > > > > > > > Fax: 020 7239 2576 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [log in to unmask] > > > > <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > > > > > > > > The British Postal Museum & Archive (BPMA) > > > > > > > > Freeling House, Phoenix Place, London WC1X 0DL > > > > > > > > www.postalheritage.org.uk <http://www.postalheritage.org.uk/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > British postal communications helped to shape the modern world. > > > > The British Postal Museum & Archive illuminates the lives of > > > > people in the Post Office, the messages carried by > Royal Mail, the > > > > history we all share. Our history through the post. > > > > > > > > The BPMA is the public identity of the Postal Heritage Trust. > > > > > > > > Registered as a charity in England and Wales. > > > > Registered Charity Number 1102360 > > > > Company Number 4896056 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Family History Research > > > > > > > > > > > > Researching your postal ancestors? Want to share what you've > > discovered > > > > with a wider audience? Why not use the Wiki to tell > others about > > > > your research? > > > > > > > > Use the Wiki Family history research > > > > > <http://www.massmailer.co.uk/go.php?RKKH2J8JU8N459OE7Q6963B7UOK4YS > > > > TV> > > > > page to get started. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Postal History > > > > > > > > > > > > Do you know a lot about a certain aspect of postal > history? Have > > > > you uncovered a particularly interesting story in our > archive? Why > > > > not > > tell > > > > us more about them on the Wiki? > > > > > > > > Use the Wiki Postal history > > > > > <http://www.massmailer.co.uk/go.php?RKKH2J8JU8N459OEYMPO78SIJ7MY0J > > > > O3> > > > > page to get started. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Working with our collections > > > > > > > > > > > > Did you/do you work for the Post Office? Do you > recognise some of > > > > the objects and documents in our Collections section > > > > > <http://www.massmailer.co.uk/go.php?RKKH2J8JU8N459OE0QP7O71MVGI0PI > > > > QW> > > ? > > > > Why not tell us about what it was/is like to work with them? > > > > > > > > Use the Wiki Working with our collections > > > > > <http://www.massmailer.co.uk/go.php?RKKH2J8JU8N459OEBHDGUI0DHZ2L69 > > > > O7> > > > > page to get started. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Working for the Post Office > > > > > > > > > > > > Did you/do you work for the Post Office or Royal Mail? Tell us > > > > about your experiences on the Wiki. > > > > > > > > What do you think has changed over the years? We'd be > interested > > > > to > > hear > > > > what you think. > > > > > > > > Use the Wiki Working for the Post Office > > > > > <http://www.massmailer.co.uk/go.php?RKKH2J8JU8N459OECZXA1DOTRLJIRJ > > > > AD> > > > > to get started. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Letter boxes > > > > > > > > > > > > Do you have a digital image of a particularly > interesting letter box? > > > > Why not upload your image to the Wiki and tell us more about it. > > > > > > > > Is there a letter box near you that you would like to > know more about? > > > > Maybe someone else out there can help you with your query. You > > > > could post a question on the Wiki. > > > > > > > > Use the Wiki Letter boxes > > > > > <http://www.massmailer.co.uk/go.php?RKKH2J8JU8N459OE789FM2I4ZDYIV4 > > > > 91> > > > > page to get started. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > War Memorials in the Post Office > > > > > > > > > > > > Have you noticed a War Memorial in your local Post > Office? Please > > > > help us compile our database of Post Office War Memorials. > > > > > > > > Use our Wiki War Memorials in the Post Office > > > > > <http://www.massmailer.co.uk/go.php?RKKH2J8JU8N459OETUG225U1E5M98X > > > > FF> > > > > page to get started. > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -- > > > > ------ > > > > > > > > > > > > ************************************************** > > > > For mcg information and to manage your subscription to > the list, > > > > visit > > > the > > > > website at http://www.museumscomputergroup.org.uk > > > > ************************************************** > > > > > > > > ************************************************** > > > > For mcg information and to manage your subscription to > the list, > > > > visit > > > the > > > > website at http://www.museumscomputergroup.org.uk > > > > ************************************************** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Tehmina Goskar, MA AMA > > > [log in to unmask] > > > > > > Web Communication Development for Culture, Heritage and Academia > > > Museum Specialist Historian > > > > > > ************************************************** > > > For mcg information and to manage your subscription to the list, > > > visit > > the > > > website at http://www.museumscomputergroup.org.uk > > > ************************************************** > > > > > > ************************************************** > > > For mcg information and to manage your subscription to the list, > > > visit > > the > > > website at http://www.museumscomputergroup.org.uk > > > ************************************************** > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Tehmina Goskar, MA AMA > > [log in to unmask] > > > > Web Communication Development for Culture, Heritage and Academia > > Museum Specialist Historian > > > > ************************************************** > > For mcg information and to manage your subscription to the > list, visit > > the website at http://www.museumscomputergroup.org.uk > > ************************************************** > > > > > > -- > ________________________________________________ > > electronic museum > > ..thoughts on museums, the social web, innovation > > w: http://www.electronicmuseum.org.uk > f: http://electronicmuseum.wordpress.com/feed > e: [log in to unmask] > > ************************************************** > For mcg information and to manage your subscription to the > list, visit the website at http://www.museumscomputergroup.org.uk > ************************************************** > > ************************************************** > For mcg information and to manage your subscription to the > list, visit the website at http://www.museumscomputergroup.org.uk > ************************************************** > ************************************************** For mcg information and to manage your subscription to the list, visit the website at http://www.museumscomputergroup.org.uk **************************************************