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Tupla worshipers???? I am just speaking about the two groups I know personally and I am not making broader statements about the structures of Paganism. Personally though I think its a supernaturalising of psychologial archetypes. It also does not see the beings as divine in their own right but a creation of human interaction with the magical realm. It still fist within the archetypal model of Paganism but invests them with divine power through a gnostic model of supernaturalism. Just a view through early morning cuppa tea time. Cheers David Ty Falk wrote: > So where do you assign those folk who feel that by ascribing energy to > those psychological truths they call the literal beings into literal > existence? > > On Feb 18, 2008 6:46 PM, David Waldron <[log in to unmask] > <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote: > > Well I think this hits the fundamental division between the recons and > the hermetic Pagans I know. The recons believe in an existent literal > polytheism grounded in history and heritage where as the hermetic (and > fluffies) tend to see them as archetypes of psycological truths. > Depends on your underlying epistemological basis of faith. In a sense > its why I am increasingly seeing neo-Paganism splitting between > historicist and archetypal practitioners given that their respective > world views are increasingly becoming incompatible. > Cheers > David > > > > D E wrote: > > I see nothing odd with having a trekkie mythos ritual > > > > I think it was Phil Hine who made the two points that (a) if ritual > > participants know Star Trek and not Greek myths there is no point in > > hitting them with a Greek mythic ritual when Star Trek > characters have > > far more resonance with them and (b) a lot of things in Star > Trek (and > > all modern tv culture) are Greek myths reworked in any case. > Star Trek > > has an inner cohesion and set of rules (much like cabbala) and could > > be regarded as a mythic cycle... the main difference is lack of > > longevity- Greek myths are merely older, but how much "more > true" are > > they? Hard to work out a unit of measure on that front... > > > > dave a > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > *From:* David Waldron <mailto:[log in to unmask] > <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> > > *To:* [log in to unmask] > <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > > <mailto:[log in to unmask] > <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> > > *Sent:* Monday, February 18, 2008 11:26 PM > > *Subject:* Re: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] Lovecraft- was A question > > about Ganesh > > > > In any case Lovecraft didn't really have a systematized > mythos per > > se. It was put onto his work retrospectively by fans and, of > > course, August Derleth. I think it tends to problematise > the kind > > of hermetic reading some chaos magicians etc give to his work. > > Personally I find the use of the fictionalised characters a > little > > odd and exist because he is an esoteric writer who is gothic and > > cool from a late 20th C point of view. It seems to me > pretty much > > the same as some D&D pagans I knew a while back who used > Takhisis > > and Paladine as imago die. I wonder if people follow David > > Eddings deities. :-P It would be all cutesy idealized > rural New > > England. I've heard of a group using Star Trek characters for > > that matter. I am sure the Discordians would love that sort of > > thing and it makes my recon friends and contacts burst out > laughing. > > David > > > > > > > > Daniel Harms wrote: > >> I wouldn't put it quite in those terms. I see there being > numerous different "Lovecrafts" - the Lovecraft of "The Dunwich > Horror", the Lovecraft of "The Hound", the Lovecraft of "At the > Mountains of Madness", the Lovecraft of his letters (who could in > turn be several Lovecrafts) - and different people take the > Lovecraft they want. Sure, Lovecraft says in "At the > Mountains..." that the Old Ones are aliens, but you don't have to > listen to him. > >> > >> Plus, it might not be quite so much of a tension. > Lovecraft himself used his mechanistic materialism to justify his > personal aesthetics - if the universe really doesn't have a > special place for humanity, then seeking out enjoyment and > fulfillment in art is perfectly justifiable. I think the chaos > magicians differ from him insofar as they do not turn to > traditional forms as Lovecraft did, and that they believe their > art work on a level other than the artistic. > >> > >> Dan Harms > >> Coordinator of Instruction Librarian > >> State University of New York - Cortland > >> Memorial Library B-110 > >> (607) - 753-4042 > >> > >> ________________________________ > >> > >> From: Society for The Academic Study of Magic on behalf of > Justin Woodman > >> Sent: Sun 2/17/2008 5:42 PM > >> To: [log in to unmask] > <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > >> Subject: Re: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] Lovecraft- was A > question about Ganesh > >> > >> > >> > >> I pretty much agree with much of the below - the use of the > >> Derleth-influenced Simon Necronomicon as the > 'authoritative' text on the > >> Lovecraft mythos being a case in point. > >> > >> Although I tend to think of Lovecraft as being either > misread or > >> misunderstood in many occultural recensions of his work, I > do think that a > >> tension exists between Lovecraft's mechanistic materialism > and a kind of > >> romantic Gnostic sensibility sometimes found in his letters > and fiction > >> - a tension which inadvertantly allows for a more > 'supernaturalist' > >> interpretation of his work. > >> > >> Justin > >> > >> > >>> I've noticed that those enthusiastic about Lovecraftian > magical > >>> activities often disregard the considerable and growing > body of Lovecraft > >>> (literary) criticism. > >>> And, although I > >>> tend not to look to an author's intentions for an > appreciation of her or > >>> his works, Lovecraft seems not to have been successful at > getting the > >>> supernatural out of his stories, as far as many of his > readers are > >>> concerned. > >>> > >>> Another observation. The version of the Mythos that magical > >>> practitioners (that I've met) often turn to is not > strictly Lovecraft's. It > >>> is the later expansion and reorganization carried out by > August Derleth and > >>> the Arkham House editions. Derleth had no issue with the > supernatural in > >>> the Mythos, and regularized the Mythos pantheon according > to widespread > >>> occultural notions. > >>> > >>> Musing I Have Met Yog-Sothoth & ........ Rose, > >>> > >>> > >>> Pitch > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Dr. Justin Woodman > >> Course Convenor > >> Integrated Degree in Social Anthropology > >> Department of Professional and Community Education > >> Goldsmiths College > >> New Cross > >> London SE14 6NW > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > -- > Ty Falk > ~~~~~~~ > Erisian > Anthropologist > Grand Rapids, MI, USA