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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture The references or implications are ancient--remember the account in the Bible of how David first saw Bethsheba. --V. K. Quoting jbugslag <[log in to unmask]>: > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture > > I can't remember what text it was (the Shepherd of Hermas, perhaps?), but > there is an early > Christian text that is prefaced by an account of the Christian writer, a > servant of a noble > Roman lady, seeing her bathing in the Tiber naked and having libidinous > thoughts. It wasn't > so much the bathing itself as the visible circumstances of bathing at that > time that were under > question here. Although my Latin is rather small, might not that sort of > thing, perhaps even > inspired by that very text, be what Augustine is railing against here? > Jim Bugslag > > On 2 Jan 2008 at 13:33, Tom Izbicki wrote: > > > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and > > culture > > > > Thus far, the earliest reference to the baths in those negative terms > > I can find is: "et prurigo thermarum" in S. AURELII AUGUSTINI > > HIPPONENSIS EPISCOPI DE CATECHIZANDIS RUDIBUS LIBER UNUS c. 16, > > Patrologia latina 40.330: Quomodo ergo sanitatem pacis tenere animus > > potest, qui discordiis et certaminibus pascitur? Qualis enim cibus > > sumitur, talis valetudo consequitur. Postremo quamvis insana gaudia > > non sint gaudia, tamen qualiacumque sint, et quantumlibet delectet > > jactantia divitiarum, et tumor honorum, vorago popinarum, et bella > > theatrorum, et immunditia fornicationum, et prurigo [H]thermarum; > > aufert omnia ista una febricula, et adhuc viventibus totam falsam > > beatitudinem subtrahit: remanet inanis et saucia conscientia, Deum > > sensura judicem, quem noluit habere custodem; et inventura asperum > > Dominum, quem dulcem patrem quaerere et amare contempsit. Tom Izbicki > > > > > > > > George R. Hoelzeman wrote: > > > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and > > > culture > > > > > > I have to say, what you're noting here is very interesting. I've > > > always heard/read the phrase "odor of sanctity" but would there be a > > > Latin (or other) phrase that is more precisely translated "odor of > > > piety/piosity"? What sources are there on the subject? > > > > > > I seem to recall that foregoing baths was seen as a pious practice > > > among the early Monastic Fathers, though I forget the exact > > > references at the moment. I suspect that it was rooted in the > > > association of the Baths with the luxurious decadence (real or > > > imagined) of the late Imperial period. But then, would not earlier > > > practices like those described in Job be related to not bathing > > > (covering oneself with ashes, etc. as a sign of penitence/fasting)? > > > > > > There is also a story in the Arabian Nights in which a man of some > > > stature conceals his identity by assuming the clothes of a local > > > holy man only to discover the Sufi's clothes are infested with lice. > > > . . again, I'll have to comb thru my translation of the "Nights" to > > > find exactly where. . . > > > > > > This is very interesting. > > > > > > George > > > > > > On Wed, 2 Jan 2008 13:02:52 -0500, V. Kerry Inman wrote: > > > > > > > > >> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and > > >> culture > > >> > > > > > > > > >> I appreciate your response. Certainly he was odorous, but was this > > >> a real accomplishment in the middle ages? I think there is a > > >> difference between the odor of piety (some would call this > > >> piosity)--a very real odor which I have smelled many times--and > > >> odorless sanctity. The problem is there were no instruments to > > >> measure this in the middle ages and we are dependent upon the noses > > >> and descriptions of middle evilians, mostly hagiographers, who did > > >> not always distinguish between piety and sanctity. I realize I am > > >> not documenting--being a stickler on documentation--but according > > >> to one late medieval source the reason the Muslims lost Spain to > > >> the Christians was that the Muslims bathed regularly where as the > > >> Christians were more pious. > > >> > > > > > > > > >> V. K. Inman > > >> > > > > > > > > >> There is another list I am on, on which everything I have said > > >> would be taken as academic proliferation and challenged with > > >> recommendations like--read the Wikipedia article by Jedd Klampet on > > >> this subject. Right Rochelle, Bob? > > >> > > > > > > ******************************************************************** > > > ** To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR > > > NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, > > > address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, > > > send the message: leave medieval-religion to: > > > [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact > > > the list's owners, write to: > > > [log in to unmask] For further information, > > > visit our web site: > > > http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html > > > > > > > ********************************************************************** > > To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME > > to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it > > to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the > > message: leave medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order > > to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: > > [log in to unmask] For further information, > > visit our web site: > > http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html > > > > ********************************************************************** > To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME > to: [log in to unmask] > To send a message to the list, address it to: > [log in to unmask] > To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion > to: [log in to unmask] > In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: > [log in to unmask] > For further information, visit our web site: > http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html > ********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html