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I said.. >>the Gard 3rd degree is, if anything, like Crowley's Gnostic Mass, >>certainly nothing like the OTO 3rd degree.<< Actually, now I think about it, I probably shouldn't say "nothing like" the OTO 3rd degree, because there are some Freemasonic-derived aspects in there that they both share. But it gets difficult to discuss these initiations - even if one is a scholar - when one has taken oaths not to. Perhaps Melissa Harrington is on this list and prepared to discuss the similarities and differences between OTO and Gardnerian initiations more explicitly, as I know she has done so on another list? ~Caroline Tully.