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This thread has perhaps been cut by now, but I was interested in my colleague's response, as I didn't know he is a games-player. I used to play war games when I was a bit younger but gave up when I found all those small pieces of hexagonal card on a map were too cumbersome -- and I kept on getting beaten by people half my age. The idea of magic in a criminal procedure context is fascinating and I'll have to have a face-to-face chat about this some time in the near future. Two minor points. I have not been able to reply sooner because I have been away having a fairly major operation on my leg, the main part taking about 5-6 hours to cut out an 11.5 m piece of femur and some surrounding soft tissue. This all happened while I was unconscious (thank heavens!) but on the previous day I lay on my back for three hours while a Danish surgeon shot 26 small platinum wires into my left leg to embolise three veins leading into a tumour there. He did this by inserting a catheter into the right femoral artery and wiggling it around into the left leg. This was all visible on the X-ray machine and he explained about different catheters -- side-winders, shepherd's crooks and catheters within catheters to prevent spasms in the arteries so 5 could follow quite a lot of what he was doing. Later the leading surgeon told me that I was the first person to whom they had done this operation in all of western Denmark, so I suppose I am some kind of initiate. I recently heard some one commenting that he'd been to hospital to visit a sick person so often that he was learning so much about medicine that he was considering a career change. I can see his point and I certainly feel that I have been 'initiated' into medical mysteries more than I have ever sought before — I say this in part because my first girl friend, who had studied English Literature with me, subsequently went on to take a medical degree. Hence I came across quite a few of her medical colleagues. There is quite a considerable element of 'initiatory' practice in medicine, more, I think than in Law, even if one goes on to practise. It's partly because it's a more collaborative profession, with many decisions being taken in a team. It's interesting to see how one would have an initiatory experience in a classroom. I am not sure that graduation is really very an initiatory experience except perhaps at old universities when there is a sense of coming in as one thing (dressed as an undergrad, for instance) and then having some physical ceremony (touched with a holy book, havng one's hands clasped) beforre perhapds re-entering as a graduate. The thing is that the ceremony is performed in front of a large number of 'masters'. But then academic dress and ceremony is another of my interest. I can't quite see how one could have a large number of initiates without a comparable or greatrer number of 'masters'. Years ago I was initiated a s freemason — and for those interested in initiatory rites there are plenty of other orders apart from the basic so that there are quite a few initiatory elements. This was perfomred in the bowels of the Cafe Royale in London which had a number of quite odd Oscar Wilde drawings on the walls and was performed in an underground, windowless room. There were two of us but we were initiated separately and I was allowed to stay and watch the initiation of my masonic brother. The second degree ceemony is not very exciting but the third degree is extremely impressive, as much of this, like the first is done either blindfolded or in darkness. I recall being told on the way back to Oxford that it was very different undergoing the initiation rather than just reading about it. That's certainly true. The sudden acceptance into a society is the main aspect of the change -- it is not, as I think Antoine Fevre puts it -- is not educative: 'Transformation, not just education.' as he puts it in an interview with Smoley and Kinney in Gnosis. I can't, I must admit, say that my life was transformed. But it is a fairly powerful ceremony nonetheless, and although I have subsequently encountered a fair number of dreary freemasons, I was lucky in that these were often very senior and successful in their non-esoteric lives. It made the ritual, which can seem like play-acting, more serious and central. I must say that it seems that the opportunity for participation in any initiatory rites in modern society are in decline and this is undoubtedly a great shame. It requires an ability to take seriously ceremonies that most people now feel are silly, irrelevant, elitist, secretive, or whatever. Best wishes, Richard -----Original Message----- From: Peter Edge <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Sent: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 7:19 am Subject: Re: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] Esoterism in the Classroom A very enjoyable thread - my contribution is very much an aside. I'm a keen player of role-playing games. My long standing gaming group is a mix of different worldviews, ranging from the scientific-materialist to active members of identifiable magical traditions. At one point, I floated the idea of incorporating magic into legal systems and dispute resolution in fantasy settings, and suggested that the perspective of the designer on the place of magic in the 'real' world would influence the design decisions. If your question is 'what if magic worked', you might well create different changes to criminal procedure than if your question was 'what if the working of magic was fully recognised'. Something similar would seem to take place when we are asked to understand the inner world of a magical practitioner, historical or contemporary. Peter. ----- Original Message ----- From: kaostar To: [log in to unmask] Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2007 6:57 AM Subject: Re: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] Esoterism in the Classroom Jason wrote: (snip) " In my first class, I bring students in through an 'initiation ceremony' where they get a first-hand experience of how power and mystery work, as well as in/out group politics. I also have them memorize an 'oath' which is actually a reverse acronym for one of the course goals - and see if any of them can solve it by the end of the term. Many of them do because they've learned how to think, read and act like an occultist." that is simply fabulous stuff! also Ronald Hutton is one of several who have highlighted how academia itself is magical in the whole process of graduation ceremonies being initiations- and certainly the ones i have been to have been a mix of "high church", magic and surreal humour..... dave e ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?ncid=aolcmp00050000000003