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Perhaps the more important statistical point to this discussion is that people with knowledge of census and survey fieldwork are well aware of these issues. The problem is that the process of moving from interviewing people (or collecting forms) through to published statistics can lose a lot of the nuances that fieldworkers are well aware of. We had this discussion about the census, then ONS found that the address registers were not as good as they thought. Subsequently we have had this discussion of what Are known in the trade as 'benefit drop addresses' however infelicitous the term may be. Both issues are known to fieldworkers and fieldwork co-ordinators. They should not come as a surprise to statistics producers or subsequently users. --------------------------------------------------------- Paul Bivand Head of Analysis and Statistics Direct Line: 020 7840 8335 Inclusion 3rd floor, 89 Albert Embankment, London SE1 7TP Tel: 020 7582 7221 Fax: 020 7582 6391 Inclusion website: www.cesi.org.uk The contents of this e-mail and any attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee. If you are not the intended recipient please return the e-mail to the sender and delete from your mailbox. The contents of this e-mail and any attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee. > -----Original Message----- > From: email list for Radical Statistics > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Martin Rathfelder > Sent: 12 November 2007 17:51 > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: Benefit drop address > > Certainly in Manchester people with relevant experience were > employed to count people sleeping rough. > > Martin Rathfelder > Director > Socialist Health Association > 22 Blair Road > Manchester > M16 8NS > 0870 013 0065 > www.sochealth.co.uk > > If you do not wish to be on our mailing list please let us > know and we will remove you. > > > Ursula Huws wrote: > > how many of those missing 300,000 were sleeping rough, > I wonder. is > this something that was guesstimated? > best wishes, Ursula Huws > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: email list for Radical Statistics > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of > Paul Bivand > Sent: 12 November 2007 10:00 > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: Benefit drop address > > After the last Census the ONS did a lot of work > (given the > extreme level of anger from various local authorities). > > A result of these investigations is that the mid-year > population estimates were nothing like 1 > million down - all > the documentation is either on the ONS website > or statistics > commission. > > From memory, they 'found' most of them - leaving around > 300-350,000 unaccounted for. That would figure > reasonably > well with the 1 million lone parents claiming > some form of > benefit (about 725,000 claiming Income Support > which is the > main figure usually quoted - the rest claim Incapacity > Benefit or Carer's Allowance, with a few claiming JSA. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: email list for Radical Statistics > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On > Behalf Of John Whittington > Sent: 12 November 2007 09:26 > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: Benefit drop address > > At 18:26 11/11/2007 +0000, R.Thomas wrote: > > > > ....But 1.9 million are not. A > regular boy-friend can > make any of these 1.9 single mums feel > vulnerable to a charge > of cohabitation. So it can be > expected that single mums > will explain their vulnerability to any > regular boy friend > (or more than one regular boyfriend!?). > So any regular > boyfriend is is likely to have another > address to protect the > single mum's financial position. > > > Indeed so, and I thought/presumed > (seemingly incorrectly) > that this is what we were talking about > (which would render > the phrase 'benefit drop address' > inappropriate for that > 'other address' in many of the cases). > > > > How often regular boy friends are > at their separate > address and what response the Census > enumerator gets at that > address are matters for speculation. > It is difficult to > imagine how an estimate might be made > of how often the > situation might lead to men being > missed from the Census. > But it seems likely that there is more > than just the > possibility that these single mums are > the major factor > involved in the missing million men. > > > As you say, that will almost certainly > be a factor - > although, as I said before, I would > have thought that many of > these boyfriends would want to be > included in the Cenus at > the 'other address', perceived as a way > of reinforcing their > attempts at protecting' the single > mother's position. > > > > Is there any other kind of > situation that would be > associated with a difference between > the number of men and > women missed in the Census? > > > Well, if one assumes that one of the > major reasons for > deliberately 'hiding' from the Census > is probably related to > unlawful activities or 'status', I > would hazard a guess > (although I may be wrong) that men > would probably appreciably > outnumber women in those categories. > > Kindest Regards, > > > > John > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Dr John Whittington, Voice: > +44 (0) 1296 730225 > Mediscience Services Fax: > +44 (0) 1296 738893 > Twyford Manor, Twyford, E-mail: > [log in to unmask] > Buckingham MK18 4EL, UK > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > ****************************************************** Please > note that if you press the 'Reply' > button your message will > go only to the sender of this message. > If you want to reply > to the whole list, use your mailer's > 'Reply-to-All' button to > send your message automatically to > [log in to unmask] > Disclaimer: The messages sent to this > list are the views of > the sender and cannot be assumed to be > representative of the > range of views held by subscribers to > the Radical Statistics > Group. 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To find out more about Radical > Statistics and its aims and activities and read current and > past issues of our newsletter you are invited to visit our > web site www.radstats.org.uk. > ******************************************************* > > > > > > ****************************************************** Please > note that if you press the 'Reply' button your message will > go only to the sender of this message. If you want to reply > to the whole list, use your mailer's 'Reply-to-All' button to > send your message automatically to [log in to unmask] > Disclaimer: The messages sent to this list are the views of > the sender and cannot be assumed to be representative of the > range of views held by subscribers to the Radical Statistics > Group. To find out more about Radical Statistics and its aims > and activities and read current and past issues of our > newsletter you are invited to visit our web site > www.radstats.org.uk. > ******************************************************* > ****************************************************** Please note that if you press the 'Reply' button your message will go only to the sender of this message. If you want to reply to the whole list, use your mailer's 'Reply-to-All' button to send your message automatically to [log in to unmask] Disclaimer: The messages sent to this list are the views of the sender and cannot be assumed to be representative of the range of views held by subscribers to the Radical Statistics Group. To find out more about Radical Statistics and its aims and activities and read current and past issues of our newsletter you are invited to visit our web site www.radstats.org.uk. *******************************************************