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But Joe, in any case, recovered from any disappointments in Naco and was soon (he was a great fan of Joyce) bustling about the house singing: O Milly Bloom, you are my darling. You are my looking glass from night to morning. I'd rather have you without a farthing Then Katey Keogh with her ass and garden Which I found very cheering and to the point. On 11/1/07, joe green <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > Yes! It's an old Texan saying with universal applicability! Here Joe > applied it to me and trying to live it down I ended up leaving the army and > spending some time in Las Vegas (ok, I was a romantic, wanted to parlay my > last funds into a fortune and see for myself the English department at the > University of Nevada, Las Vegas thinking "ah, what reptiles would creep in > those halls" and hoping to fit in I would take up the study of the poetry of > evil but I ended up fleeing when I was beaten by my ex mother in law in a > laundromat. Those were the days. > > On 11/1/07, kasper salonen <[log in to unmask] > wrote: > > > > that's one killer of a ballad. > > "You couldn't pour piss from a cowboy boot with the instructions on the > > heel." > > > > I'm going to use that, next time I want to tell someone off > > > > KS > > > > On 31/10/2007, joe green < [log in to unmask]> wrote: > > > Yes, I love drama queens as a matter of fact. Is that so Awful? My > > > favorite uncle -- Joe O'Brien -- was one and here's a true tale of one > > > > > adventure he had. Horrible verse some would say! Of course, they are > > not > > > from Nashville. > > > > > > > > > *A Ballade of Uncle Joe* > > > > > > > > > > > > Don't go to Naco I told Uncle Joe O'Brien > > > > > > Stay here with Paco your tortillas is frying. > > > > > > But he said "I have not forsook all joys. > > > > > > I'm goin' to Naco for those brown eyed boys!" > > > > > > > > > > > > My Uncle Joe O'Brien was Irish and was gay. > > > > > > Twenty years he had been sighing down in Long Beach near LA. > > > > > > Loved Bonanza and loved Sugarfoot. Loved all Louis L'Amour > > > > > > He knew Cheyenne was a lonely man. Knew he wanted more. > > > > > > > > > > > > I was living in Huachuca. This was back in 71. > > > > > > I was a sad Palooka. My wife said "Goodbye, hon." > > > > > > Took off across Sonora. Left me busted flat. > > > > > > You can call me schnoorer. Paco was my cat. > > > > > > > > > > > > One night I heard the telephone. It was my Uncle Joe. > > > > > > Asked him to come see me. He said "Well, I don't know." > > > > > > Told him "There's a simple reason you might want to come around. > > > > > > It's the tourist season and Clint Walker is in town! > > > > > > > > > > > > "I'm on the first damn airplane!" cried Uncle Joe O'Brien > > > > > > Took a little cocaine so he'd feel alright flying. > > > > > > Drove down from Tucson in a yellow renter car. > > > > > > Dressed himself as Zorro. Then we went over to a bar. > > > > > > > > > > > > The eyes of Arizona were upon as as we sashayed inside > > > > > > My uncle dressed as Zorro his shilleagh by his side. > > > > > > "A Sloe Gin Fizz" cried Uncle Joe "and a whiskey for my man." > > > > > > And turned to me said "Tell me, son. when will we see Cheyenne?" > > > > > > > > > > > > I looked up at my Uncle Joe all six foot eight of him > > > > > > And said "Cheyenne's not coming, Joe." Ah, my Uncle looked so grim! > > > > > > "My Rosalita's left me and I need your advice. > > > > > > I lied about Cheyenne, I fear." His eyes turned cold as ice. > > > > > > > > > > > > "You've always been a fuckup, son, and I think it's getting worse. > > > > > > You could be so happy if you were polymorphously perverse. > > > > > > But I'll be frank with you, my man, and tell you how I feel: > > > > > > You couldn't pour piss from a cowboy boot with the instructions on the > > heel. > > > > > > > > > > > > You've always been an asshole yet I think you need another > > > > > > And that's what I would give you but for your dear old sainted > > mother." > > > > > > > > > > > > Joe had fought at Iwo. Fought the Japs like a machine. > > > > > > Like something out of a Devo. A fighting gay Marine. > > > > > > Three drunken soldiers came up. One said, "Man, I hate your hat. > > > > > > My Uncle Joe he laid 'em low in thirty seconds flat. > > > > > > > > > > > > The crowd fell back before us as Joe walked out to the car. > > > > > > Uncle Joe made just one remark: "I wish I had my B.A.R. > > > > > > Pulled down his Zorro hat and twitched his Zorro cape. > > > > > > Put in Giuseppe Verdi. Played that Eight-Track tape. > > > > > > > > > > > > Sang "Celeste Aida" as we went down the Bisbee road. > > > > > > Joe felt just like Zorro. I felt just like Tom Joad. > > > > > > > > > > > > Don't go to Naco I told Uncle Joe O'Brien > > > > > > Stay here with Paco your tortillas is frying. > > > > > > But he said "I have not forsook all joys. > > > > > > I'm goin to Naco for those brown eyed boys!" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 10/31/07, Patrick McManus < [log in to unmask]> wrote: > > > > > > > > Look here I am the only low grade (very low grade) drama queen > > around here > > > > and it's me that gets to write the bad poetry > > > > So you all stop trying to muscle in on my scene I can outbad you all > > any > > > > time and as for swans we won't go into that either > > > > Love to you all be warned > > > > Patrick aged silver surfer drama queener extraordinaire > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Poetryetc: poetry and poetics [mailto:[log in to unmask]] > > On > > > > Behalf Of joe green > > > > Sent: 31 October 2007 02:14 > > > > To: [log in to unmask] > > > > Subject: Re: Manipulation (no longer Re: New at Sharp Sand) > > > > > > > > Why, no. One seeks simple justice. One wants to hold on.... One's > > sense > > > > of the ridiculous already satisfied! > > > > > > > > On 10/30/07, Roger Day <[log in to unmask] > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > oh yeah, before I forget. I think you've been building up to this > > so > > > > > you could swan around like a low-grade drama queen. > > > > > > > > > > Roger > > > > > > > > > > On 10/30/07, Roger Day < [log in to unmask] > wrote: > > > > > > I've missed nothing, Joe. I just dislike you, your manner and > > your > > > > > writing. > > > > > > > > > > > > Roger > > > > > > > > > > > > On 10/30/07, joe green < [log in to unmask]> wrote: > > > > > > > Just in case you missed it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Joseph Duemer wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, Andrew. I wonder what other poets, loved in youth, > > flist > > > > > > > > > > > > > > members have had to reevaluate. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Joe Green responded: None, I never liked bad poetry. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Joe Green is quoted: "None, I never liked bad poetry." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Joseph Duemer wrote: So, you just write it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So, as you can see, the only decent thing to do is to ask for > > an > > > > > apology > > > > > > > from Joe Duemer also. > > > > > > > Or is he somehow justified? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If so, please inform the editors at Fulcrum and tell them to > > cancel > > > > my > > > > > 15 > > > > > > > pages of execrable verse in the next issue. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or should I do it for you? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 10/30/07, Roger Day < [log in to unmask] > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if JG gets to run poetryetc, I'm outahere. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Roger > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 10/30/07, Joseph Duemer <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Joe, would you like to run Poetryetc? I'll be glad to hand > > you > > > > the > > > > > keys > > > > > > > > & > > > > > > > > > get the hell out of town. Your relentless anti-academic, > > > > > > > > anti-intellectual > > > > > > > > > bullshit has finally just gotten me down. You win. Really, > > it's > > > > > yours. > > > > > > > > I'll > > > > > > > > > resent the list to make you owner -- just give me the > > word. I > > > > > mean, > > > > > > > > you'd be > > > > > > > > > great because you know everything already & if anyone has > > any > > > > > questions > > > > > > > > they > > > > > > > > > can just ask you & that will settle the issue. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > jd > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 10/30/07, joe green <[log in to unmask] > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do you consider the reader's need to not read a > > composition > > > > > based on > > > > > > > > what > > > > > > > > > > you think the reader needs? Seems so very odd... and > > seems > > > > like > > > > > a > > > > > > > > formula > > > > > > > > > > for endless repetition of the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Seems to have its origins in didactic poesy and seems > > quite > > > > 19th > > > > > > > > century. > > > > > > > > > > Almost schoolmarmish. Wordsworth began "The Prelude" as > > an > > > > > attempt to > > > > > > > > > > justify his poetry -- why should anyone listen to > > him?.... and > > > > > then > > > > > > > > kept > > > > > > > > > > on > > > > > > > > > > revising it until he brought it to ruins. Thinking of > > the > > > > > reader had > > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > > > lot > > > > > > > > > > to do with that. The first prelude wild and open to > > > > > contradiction and > > > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > > > fully comprehended even by the poet. The revisions all > > > > > occasioned by > > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > > > didactic impulse with a sense of not having to > > demonstrate > > > > what > > > > > was > > > > > > > > > > assumed > > > > > > > > > > to have been shown. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I like Eliot's suggestion that a poem is judged by all > > other > > > > > poems -- > > > > > > > > > > those > > > > > > > > > > poems are the readers in a sense. They are not troubled > > by > > > > > > > > theoretical > > > > > > > > > > grounds immersed in what is quite secondary and of a > > certain > > > > > time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But I acknowledge that these ideas of how a poem is made > > are > > > > > accepted > > > > > > > > by > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > general public and I suspect that they are created by > > the > > > > > workshop > > > > > > > > > > mentality > > > > > > > > > > and determined by the enabling conviction that one can > > be > > > > taught > > > > > to > > > > > > > > write > > > > > > > > > > poetry. And that many are qualified to do so! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 10/30/07, Joseph Duemer <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Martin, if you're on shaky theoretical ground then so > > am I. > > > > I > > > > > often > > > > > > > > find > > > > > > > > > > > myself anticipating what I think of as my readers' > > needs. I > > > > > want to > > > > > > > > put > > > > > > > > > > > things together in such a way that a reader will have > > some > > > > > reactions > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > > > > have others. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > jd > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 10/30/07, Martin Dolan < [log in to unmask]> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On the question of whether "a writer seeks to > > manipulate a > > > > > desired > > > > > > > > > > > > audience", the question very much seems to be one of > > > > > intention. > > > > > > > > > > > > Manipulation in this case definitely has > > implications of > > > > > trying to > > > > > > > > > > > > obtain an advantage or an unfair outcome - > > unfavourable > > > > > intent. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If we used a less value-laden description > > (influence, > > > > > perhaps), it > > > > > > > > > > > > strikes me that I - perhaps alone! - often set out > > to > > > > > influence > > > > > > > > others > > > > > > > > > > > > through some of my poems, at least by evoking an > > response. > > > > I > > > > > get > > > > > > > > an > > > > > > > > > > > > uneasy feeling that I'm on suspect theoretical > > ground > > > > here, > > > > > but > > > > > > > > hey, I > > > > > > > > > > > > don't claim I'm successful in my intent. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Martin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Douglas Barbour wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh [probably, Roger, in which case everyone is > > > > > 'sincere'... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But Mark was talking, if I remember rightly, about > > > > whether > > > > > or > > > > > > > > not a > > > > > > > > > > > > > writer seeks to manipulate a desired audience. I > > guess > > > > > that's a > > > > > > > > kind > > > > > > > > > > > > > of intention, whether or not it actually works? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would tend to agree that we're always readers, > > but > > > > then > > > > > I > > > > > > > > > > > > > immediately begin to wonder if that's right, > > too.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My more serious point in that post had to do with > > that > > > > > question > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > > > craft, which as readers we can, I guess, only > > intuit, > > > > out > > > > > of a > > > > > > > > > > > > > sensibility constructed by all our (other) > > reading.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Doug > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 28-Oct-07, at 3:12 AM, Roger Day wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Outside v inside readings - isnt that some form > > of > > > > false > > > > > > > > dichotomy? > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Neither exists as we're only readers and we > > impose our > > > > > own > > > > > > > > > > > > >> rose-coloured glasses on everything we read. I > > thought > > > > > we'd > > > > > > > > > > excluded > > > > > > > > > > > > >> intentional fallacies? > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Roger > > > > > > > > > > > > > Douglas Barbour > > > > > > > > > > > > > 11655 - 72 Avenue NW > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edmonton Ab T6G 0B9 > > > > > > > > > > > > > (780) 436 3320 > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.ualberta.ca/~dbarbour/<http://www.ualberta.ca/%7Edbarbour/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Latest book: Continuations (with Sheila E Murphy) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.uap.ualberta.ca/UAP.asp?LID=41&bookID=664 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's the first lesson, loss. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Who hasn't tried to learn it > > > > > > > > > > > > > at the hands of wind or thieves? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jan Zwicky > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > Joseph Duemer > > > > > > > > > > > Professor of Humanities > > > > > > > > > > > Clarkson University > > > > > > > > > > > [ sharpsand.net] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > Joseph Duemer > > > > > > > > > Professor of Humanities > > > > > > > > > Clarkson University > > > > > > > > > [sharpsand.net] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > My Stuff: http://www.badstep.net/ > > > > > > > > "In peace, sons bury their fathers. In war, fathers bury > > their > > > > > sons." > > > > > > > > Roman Proverb > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > My Stuff: http://www.badstep.net/ > > > > > > "In peace, sons bury their fathers. In war, fathers bury their > > sons." > > > > > > Roman Proverb > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > My Stuff: http://www.badstep.net/ > > > > > "In peace, sons bury their fathers. In war, fathers bury their > > sons." > > > > > Roman Proverb > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > > > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.15/1101 - Release Date: > > > > 31/10/2007 > > > > 10:06 > > > > > > > > > > >