dear qiao,
i think your last email is for me. what i said is general word for every body. i did not like the word nonsense as it is not a acdamic word for analyse and it is not helpful at all. for many years in england, i am never allowed myself to be angry or fight with our chinese people.
it is not surprising me that you are a experenced teacher; i know there are lots fo outstanding chinese teachers in UK. i am a native speaker, having taught chinese for many years in a top high school in China, i did grammar and literature revision courses many years to grade 3 student for their gaokao in my school. i also asked professor Qi,doctorial supervisor, about that and my points, whose acdamic area is mordern chinese language.
about de, it should be right putting it after hongse or other phrase or word to modify in most sentences; but it is also right without de in many sentences or phrases. i did know what the teacher book said about this, but you can also find the sentence in Chinese Gcse:
wo xihuan zhongguo yinyue
you can get in Cc 's email as well.
if you still want to argu, you can give you other examples, the meaning of hong(red)is as same as one possible meaning of red in i am a red girl.
rong yiren shi hongse zibenjia. sulian shi hongse zhengquan.
spoken chinese is a flexible and not accurate, especially for a short sentences without context (yujing) and some word maybe used by its biyuyi or yinshenyi. and the grammar of spoken language is more difficult, this is why i said we had to make efforts to learn more and encourage us to be good.
you have been over-protecting yourself, perhaps so am i, which did upset me a lot. you want a meet, you can sent email to me; i would like to have a chat.
i want to remind our teachers here, the sentence that i think is grammatically wrong is No.2 in sentence patterns, p144 , Chinese for GCSE book3.
never talk that long, i hope i am not going to be fired.
thanks
george
> Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 23:08:39 +0000
> From: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Your views
> To: [log in to unmask]
>
> Well, you don't have to be so angry about one word and blame others! We are
> just having a discussion to help each other. If you don't accept my view
> that is find. However, the reason I used the word 'Nonsense' is to
> differentiate from what you said 'grammatically correct' because I didn't
> really want to jump into a quick conclusion that sentence you said was
> actually unacceptable. But if you ask any native Chinese people about this
> sentence to see their response you will realize what I meant by 'Nonsense'.
> Do you think Nonsense is a bad word? Do you really hate it? I am sorry
> about it!
>
> Secondary, I put forward my opinion in this discussion as I found this
> topic was very interesting. I did not have any intention to charge or blame
> any teachers. I fully appreciate every teacher has their own strength. I am
> no better than you or others. Personally I don't know any of you and I
> don't even remember who raised this question.
>
> Sorry I don't understand your no.3 point as some words did not show
> properly. Do you mean we cannot say 'hong de'? If yes, I am surprised to
> hear that.
>
> Finally I am totally and completely agree with you that all Chinese
> teachers should be VERY good at Chinese grammar. It will be even better if
> we are armed with some knowledge of English grammar. But mind you a good
> grammarian dose not equal to a good teacher. Grammar is the rules of the
> language but they cannot rule our speech. That is the difference between
> native speakers and non-native speakers.
>
> If you don't like different opinions or oppositions, I fully understand it
> and accept it. But for the benefit of other teachers I think this kind of
> debate should be encouraged as we are in a democratic society.
>
> Unfortunately I don't understand your first point. Never mind. Calm down! I
> hope to meet you one day if possible!
> best wishes
> Qiao
> --On 12 November 2007 10:46 +0000 george zhiyuzhao
> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> >
> > Dear colleagues,
> >
> > I do agree with Cc, and thanks for explanations. For this case, I list my
> > points: 1. all Chinese teacher have to be very good at Chinese grammar.
> > 2. the sentence I am a red girl (can not use Chinese fonts in school ) is
> > correct. There are only two possible reasons of any wrong sentence,
> > grammatically incorrect and logically incorrect. so, for that special
> > case: a. it is grammatically incorrect; b. we have to guess what that
> > exactly means; and it has many meanings which are right and meaningful;
> > so we can not simply say it is nonsense. 3. In both written and spoken
> > language, we don?t have to put ?de? after red, you can find examples in
> > many books or dictionaries. And, not only for colours, for lots noun or
> > noun phrases as well; I am not too sure about adjective phrases, as I
> > don?t have any grammar book; I might help if there are some examples. 4.
> > as a teacher, we have to face any problems or issues like that. 5. as a
> > teacher, do behave yourselves. Don?t blame or charge other teachers,
> > nobody is good enough for that. 6. thanks for discussion, which is
> > really helpful.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > george
> >> Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 22:03:59 +0000> From: [log in to unmask]> Subject:
> >> Re: Your views> To: [log in to unmask]> > Dear
> >> Chinese Teachers,> > If you ARE interested in GRAMMAR, then perhaps you
> >> might want to consider to open the attachment. Before you do, there is a
> >> number of things to clarify:> > 1. It is not an attempt to compile an
> >> exhaustive list of colours> 2. It is an attempt to share ideas> 3. The
> >> list is entirely composed out of memory, hence errors will occur> 4.
> >> I've had so much fan in writing it out> > I thank those who have
> >> provided the impetus for me to look into the matter.> > With my very
> >> best wishes,> > Cc> > -----Original Message-----> From: Mandarin Chinese
> >> Teaching [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
> >> Qiao Liang> Sent: 2007?11?8? 22:11> To:
> >> [log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Your views> > I
> >> am surprised that you all said that this sentence could be accepted >
> >> because it is 'grammatically correct'. How about semantics? Do we
> >> actually > say it like this in Chinese? (Surely this is not a good
> >> English sentence.) > Are we teaching our children to speak nonsense so
> >> long as it is > grammatically acceptable? I think everyone knows in
> >> languages there are > many exceptions to the rules of grammar so we as
> >> teachers should not over > emphasis the use of grammar in our teaching
> >> especially to our young > children. Most English children, as far as I
> >> know, are already very > confused by their English grammar so we should
> >> keep our grammar as simple > as possible. Unfortunately not many English
> >> people nowadays know the term > of 'predictive' except linguists. I
> >> think we should teach our learners not > only grammatically correct but
> >> also semantically sound Chinese sentences. > This is only my personal
> >> view, please let me know your comment. Many thanks > for your
> >> attention.> Qiao> University of Sussex> > --On 07 November 2007 23:18
> >> +0800 Cheryl Huang <[log in to unmask]> > wrote:> > >> >
> >> Grammatically correct. If a student make a sentence such as this. I> >
> >> would accept it is a correct sentence, especially for the primary
> >> school> > pupils. (And give the pupil a good thumb up for the effort!)
> >> And it(the> > sentence) would work when talking about pictures, stories
> >> or some comic> > situations anyway. One might like to help them rephrase
> >> it to make a> > clearer context. Otherwise, it is nothing wrong to make
> >> a sentence that> > might seem a bit silly in a native speaker's ears. To
> >> my view, it is> > fine! For more able pupils, one can help making the
> >> sentence with more> > details, such as ÎÒÊǺìÉ«Í··¢µÄÅ®º¢. or
> >> ÎÒÊÇ´©ºìÉ«Ò·þµÄÄǸöÅ®º¢£¬ ...> > Let's not forget languages are also
> >> about creativity.> >> > Cheryl> >> >> > Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 14:24:08
> >> +0000From:> > [log in to unmask]: Re: Your viewsTo:> >
> >> [log in to unmask]> >> >> > Dear Colleagues, I
> >> think you have already made that a bit complcated. if> > just talked
> >> about grammar, there is nothing with context of the sentence.> >
> >> ÎÒÊǺìÉ«Å®º¢. is grammatically correct, sub+ predicate + object, but> >
> >> maybe has many meanings which can not be changed to
> >> ÎÒÊǸöºìÉ«µÄÅ®º¢×Ó¡£> > also, there is nothing with numbers of
> >> characters as your explanation.> > hope it is helpful. george> Date:
> >> Wed, 7 Nov 2007 11:51:14 +0000> From:> > [log in to unmask]> Subject: Re:
> >> Your views> To:> > [log in to unmask]> > Dear
> >> Isabella,> > In my> > humble view, '¡£' would be idiomatically better. >
> >> > Generally - from the> > top of my head - if the colour adjective has
> >> one only character, you may> > use it right before a noun, eg, ºìÅ®º¢;
> >> °×³ÄÉÀ. If there are two or more> > characters, you would like to use
> >> É«µÄ as a sort of suffix, eg,> > ÉîÀ¶É«µÄ³ÄÉÀ.> > However, there are
> >> exceptions - ÎÒ°®ÕâÀ¶É«µÄº£Ñó... or> > the repetitive form:
> >> À¶À¶µÄÌìÉÏ°×ÔÆÆ®¡£> > If there is a metaphor> > character before the
> >> colour, ie, Ñ©°×, »ðºì etc, then µÄ is commonly> > used: »ðºìµÄÄê´ú.> >
> >> It would be easier if you could provide a context,> > then the choice of
> >> words would be far more precise.> > We are talking> > about Modern
> >> Standard Chinese, not hangovers from Classical Chinese of> > course.
> >> ÎÒÊǺìÉ«Å®º¢¡£> > ×£ºÃ¡£> > Cc> > -----Original Message----->> > From:
> >> Mandarin Chinese Teaching> >
> >> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Isabella>
> >> > Teng> Sent: 2007Äê11ÔÂ6ÈÕ 21:06> To:> >
> >> [log in to unmask]> Subject: Your views> > > > I>
> >> > would appreciate it very much, if you could give me any comments, in>
> >> > terms of accuracy, on the sentence below. > > I also put the pinyin
> >> down> > in case you cannot read the characters: W¨¯ sh¨¬ h¨®ng s¨¨ n¨·
> >> h¨¢i.> >> > This is just a single sentence, there is no context with the
> >> sentence.> >> > > > > Thank you in anticipation.> > > > Isabella Teng>
> >> >> > __________________________________________________> Do You Yahoo!?>
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