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Take this off line please..... Xie xie. Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device -----Original Message----- From: Qiao Liang <[log in to unmask]> Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 20:51:28 To:[log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Your views Dear George, I am afraid I didn't mean to upset you at the first place. I don't understand why you are so angry about one word! However I don't want to discuss this matter any further as I have more important things to deal with. Many thanks any way. Qiao --On 13 November 2007 09:36 +0000 george zhiyuzhao <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > dear qiao, > i think your last email is for me. what i said is general word for every > body. i did not like the word nonsense as it is not a acdamic word for > analyse and it is not helpful at all. for many years in england, i am > never allowed myself to be angry or fight with our chinese people. it is > not surprising me that you are a experenced teacher; i know there are > lots fo outstanding chinese teachers in UK. i am a native speaker, having > taught chinese for many years in a top high school in China, i did > grammar and literature revision courses many years to grade 3 student for > their gaokao in my school. i also asked professor Qi,doctorial > supervisor, about that and my points, whose acdamic area is mordern > chinese language. about de, it should be right putting it after hongse > or other phrase or word to modify in most sentences; but it is also right > without de in many sentences or phrases. i did know what the teacher book > said about this, but you can also find the sentence in Chinese Gcse: wo > xihuan zhongguo yinyue > > you can get in Cc 's email as well. > > if you still want to argu, you can give you other examples, the meaning > of hong(red)is as same as one possible meaning of red in i am a red > girl. > rong yiren shi hongse zibenjia. sulian shi hongse zhengquan. > > spoken chinese is a flexible and not accurate, especially for a short > sentences without context (yujing) and some word maybe used by its biyuyi > or yinshenyi. and the grammar of spoken language is more difficult, this > is why i said we had to make efforts to learn more and encourage us to be > good. > you have been over-protecting yourself, perhaps so am i, which did upset > me a lot. you want a meet, you can sent email to me; i would like to have > a chat. > i want to remind our teachers here, the sentence that i think is > grammatically wrong is No.2 in sentence patterns, p144 , Chinese for GCSE > book3. > never talk that long, i hope i am not going to be fired. > > thanks > > george > > >> Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 23:08:39 +0000> From: [log in to unmask]> >> Subject: Re: Your views> To: [log in to unmask]> > >> Well, you don't have to be so angry about one word and blame others! We >> are > just having a discussion to help each other. If you don't accept >> my view > that is find. However, the reason I used the word 'Nonsense' >> is to > differentiate from what you said 'grammatically correct' because >> I didn't > really want to jump into a quick conclusion that sentence you >> said was > actually unacceptable. But if you ask any native Chinese >> people about this > sentence to see their response you will realize what >> I meant by 'Nonsense'. > Do you think Nonsense is a bad word? Do you >> really hate it? I am sorry > about it!> > Secondary, I put forward my >> opinion in this discussion as I found this > topic was very interesting. >> I did not have any intention to charge or blame > any teachers. I fully >> appreciate every teacher has their own strength. I am > no better than >> you or others. Personally I don't know any of you and I > don't even >> remember who raised this question.> > Sorry I don't understand your no.3 >> point as some words did not show > properly. Do you mean we cannot say >> 'hong de'? If yes, I am surprised to > hear that.> > Finally I am >> totally and completely agree with you that all Chinese > teachers should >> be VERY good at Chinese grammar. It will be even better if > we are >> armed with some knowledge of English grammar. But mind you a good > >> grammarian dose not equal to a good teacher. Grammar is the rules of the >> > language but they cannot rule our speech. That is the difference >> between > native speakers and non-native speakers.> > If you don't like >> different opinions or oppositions, I fully understand it > and accept >> it. But for the benefit of other teachers I think this kind of > debate >> should be encouraged as we are in a democratic society.> > Unfortunately >> I don't understand your first point. Never mind. Calm down! I > hope to >> meet you one day if possible!> best wishes> Qiao> --On 12 November 2007 >> 10:46 +0000 george zhiyuzhao > <[log in to unmask]> wrote:> > >> >> > Dear colleagues,> >> > I do agree with Cc, and thanks for >> explanations. For this case, I list my> > points: 1. all Chinese teacher >> have to be very good at Chinese grammar.> > 2. the sentence I am a red >> girl (can not use Chinese fonts in school ) is> > correct. There are >> only two possible reasons of any wrong sentence,> > grammatically >> incorrect and logically incorrect. so, for that special> > case: a. it >> is grammatically incorrect; b. we have to guess what that> > exactly >> means; and it has many meanings which are right and meaningful;> > so we >> can not simply say it is nonsense. 3. In both written and spoken> > >> language, we don?t have to put ?de? after red, you can find examples in> >> > many books or dictionaries. And, not only for colours, for lots noun >> or> > noun phrases as well; I am not too sure about adjective phrases, >> as I> > don?t have any grammar book; I might help if there are some >> examples. 4.> > as a teacher, we have to face any problems or issues >> like that. 5. as a> > teacher, do behave yourselves. Don?t blame or >> charge other teachers,> > nobody is good enough for that. 6. thanks for >> discussion, which is> > really helpful.> >> > Thanks> >> > george> >> >> Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 22:03:59 +0000> From: [log in to unmask]> Subject:> >> >> Re: Your views> To: [log in to unmask]> > Dear> >> >> Chinese Teachers,> > If you ARE interested in GRAMMAR, then perhaps >> you> >> might want to consider to open the attachment. Before you do, >> there is a> >> number of things to clarify:> > 1. It is not an attempt >> to compile an> >> exhaustive list of colours> 2. It is an attempt to >> share ideas> 3. The> >> list is entirely composed out of memory, hence >> errors will occur> 4.> >> I've had so much fan in writing it out> > I >> thank those who have> >> provided the impetus for me to look into the >> matter.> > With my very> >> best wishes,> > Cc> > -----Original >> Message-----> From: Mandarin Chinese> >> Teaching >> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of> >> Qiao >> Liang> Sent: 2007?11?8? 22:11> To:> >> >> [log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Your views> > I> >> >> am surprised that you all said that this sentence could be accepted >> >> >> because it is 'grammatically correct'. How about semantics? Do we> >> >> actually > say it like this in Chinese? (Surely this is not a good> >> >> English sentence.) > Are we teaching our children to speak nonsense >> so> >> long as it is > grammatically acceptable? I think everyone knows >> in> >> languages there are > many exceptions to the rules of grammar so >> we as> >> teachers should not over > emphasis the use of grammar in our >> teaching> >> especially to our young > children. Most English children, >> as far as I> >> know, are already very > confused by their English >> grammar so we should> >> keep our grammar as simple > as possible. >> Unfortunately not many English> >> people nowadays know the term > of >> 'predictive' except linguists. I> >> think we should teach our learners >> not > only grammatically correct but> >> also semantically sound Chinese >> sentences. > This is only my personal> >> view, please let me know your >> comment. Many thanks > for your> >> attention.> Qiao> University of >> Sussex> > --On 07 November 2007 23:18> >> +0800 Cheryl Huang >> <[log in to unmask]> > wrote:> > >> >> >> Grammatically correct. If a >> student make a sentence such as this. I> >> >> would accept it is a >> correct sentence, especially for the primary> >> school> > pupils. (And >> give the pupil a good thumb up for the effort!)> >> And it(the> > >> sentence) would work when talking about pictures, stories> >> or some >> comic> > situations anyway. One might like to help them rephrase> >> it >> to make a> > clearer context. Otherwise, it is nothing wrong to make> >> >> a sentence that> > might seem a bit silly in a native speaker's ears. >> To> >> my view, it is> > fine! For more able pupils, one can help making >> the> >> sentence with more> > details, such as ÎÒÊǺìÉ«Í··¢µÄÅ®º¢. or> >> >> ÎÒÊÇ´©ºìÉ«Ò·þµÄÄǸöÅ®º¢£¬ ...> > Let's not forget languages are >> also> >> about creativity.> >> > Cheryl> >> >> > Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 >> 14:24:08> >> +0000From:> > [log in to unmask]: Re: Your >> viewsTo:> >> >> [log in to unmask]> >> >> > Dear >> Colleagues, I> >> think you have already made that a bit complcated. if> >> > just talked> >> about grammar, there is nothing with context of the >> sentence.> >> >> ÎÒÊǺìÉ«Å®º¢. is grammatically correct, sub+ predicate >> + object, but> >> >> maybe has many meanings which can not be changed >> to> >> ÎÒÊǸöºìÉ«µÄÅ®º¢×Ó¡£> > also, there is nothing with numbers of> >> >> characters as your explanation.> > hope it is helpful. george> Date:> >> >> Wed, 7 Nov 2007 11:51:14 +0000> From:> > [log in to unmask]> Subject: >> Re:> >> Your views> To:> > [log in to unmask]> > >> Dear> >> Isabella,> > In my> > humble view, '¡£' would be idiomatically >> better. >> >> > Generally - from the> > top of my head - if the colour >> adjective has> >> one only character, you may> > use it right before a >> noun, eg, ºìÅ®º¢;> >> °×³ÄÉÀ. If there are two or more> > characters, >> you would like to use> >> É«µÄ as a sort of suffix, eg,> > >> ÉîÀ¶É«µÄ³ÄÉÀ.> > However, there are> >> exceptions - ÎÒ°®ÕâÀ¶É«µÄº£Ñó... >> or> > the repetitive form:> >> À¶À¶µÄÌìÉÏ°×ÔÆÆ®¡£> > If there is a >> metaphor> > character before the> >> colour, ie, Ñ©°×, »ðºì etc, then µÄ >> is commonly> > used: »ðºìµÄÄê´ú.> >> >> It would be easier if you could >> provide a context,> > then the choice of> >> words would be far more >> precise.> > We are talking> > about Modern> >> Standard Chinese, not >> hangovers from Classical Chinese of> > course.> >> ÎÒÊǺìÉ«Å®º¢¡£> > >> ×£ºÃ¡£> > Cc> > -----Original Message----->> > From:> >> Mandarin >> Chinese Teaching> >> >> >> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of >> Isabella>> >> > Teng> Sent: 2007Äê11ÔÂ6ÈÕ 21:06> To:> >> >> >> [log in to unmask]> Subject: Your views> > > > I>> >> >> > would appreciate it very much, if you could give me any comments, >> in>> >> > terms of accuracy, on the sentence below. > > I also put the >> pinyin> >> down> > in case you cannot read the characters: W¨¯ sh¨¬ >> h¨®ng s¨¨ n¨·> >> h¨¢i.> >> > This is just a single sentence, there is >> no context with the> >> sentence.> >> > > > > Thank you in >> anticipation.> > > > Isabella Teng>> >> >> > >>__________________________________________________> Do You Yahoo!?>> >> >> Tired> > of spam? 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